Interview with Andrew Clennell, Sky News Sunday Agenda

ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST: Joining me live now is Environment Minister Murray Watt, who's no doubt been brushing up on petrol policy. Murray Watt, thanks for your time. MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: G’day Andrew.

Good to be with you. ANDREW CLENNELL: The Opposition seems unconvinced that what the PM announced yesterday will make a meaningful difference to petrol supply. What's your reaction to that?

MURRAY WATT: I think we should take whatever the Opposition says here with a grain of salt, Andrew. I mean, let's remember that Angus Taylor, when he was the energy minister, was the guy who let four of our fuel refineries close and decided that we should store our petrol in reserves in the USA rather than here onshore. So, I think we should take what they say with a grain of salt here.

What the Government's focused on is doing everything we possibly can to make sure that we get the fuel into the country and then get it around the country where it needs to be. So, yesterday's announcement was another example of the Government taking the steps that we need, not just for today, but looking over the horizon to where things might be and making sure that we will still be able to get the fuel that we need into the country.

ANDREW CLENNELL: How bad could this get if the war goes for months? MURRAY WATT: Well, as we've been saying over the course of this week, Andrew, the longer this Middle East conflict goes on and the longer we see the Strait of Hormuz closed, the longer that is going to have an impact on petrol and diesel supplies right around the world. Of course, Australia is far from the only country that's experiencing these kinds of issues right now.

Anywhere you look is having issues around fuel supply, fuel prices. And the longer this goes on, of course, not only will it impact on family budgets, but it will impact on the national economy as well. So, we're all in favour of this being resolved as quickly as it possibly can, but also the thing we've got to bear in mind is that even if this conflict was to end tomorrow, there is going to be a long tail.

We've seen a number of other fuel producing facilities in the Middle East destroyed or damaged as a result of this conflict. So, unfortunately, this situation is not going to end anytime soon. ANDREW CLENNELL: Well, look, is the Government going to consider with the States a form of petrol rationing at the National Cabinet meeting tomorrow?

I mean, could we have, hard to believe, isn't it, an odds and evens number plate situation, which I understand took place in the 1970s during the oil shock there? You've got an odd number plate, you can turn up one day, you got an even number plate, you can turn up the next day. Could we have something like that here?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, look, that's not on our agenda at this point in time. Andrew, you would have seen yesterday the Prime Minister said that what we need to do is to be considerate of each other. It's not the Australian way to be taking more fuel than you need.

We've all seen those examples and those photographs of people hoarding fuel. That's not actually the way to operate in consideration to your neighbour and to your family and friends. And of course, there's real issues about the amount of fuel that people might be storing on their properties and the safety of that.

So, what we're asking people to do is to use some common sense, take the fuel that you need, but not more than you need, and think about your neighbour who needs fuel as well. ANDREW CLENNELL: What are you doing at the moment? Are you filling up as much as you can, or are you in the government car so it doesn't matter?

MURRAY WATT: Well, sometimes I use the government car, but of course my family have got cars as well and we're tending to run at about half full. And we're obviously in the fortunate situation, living in the cities, that we don't have to necessarily travel long distances and fuel is generally available in the service stations around me. And I recognise that that's not the case for everyone in the country.

But again, we need to get through this together. We're not going to get through it together if everyone is looking out for themselves. You've heard us say that we are continuing to get fuel supply into the country.

We've got 39 days worth of petrol at the moment, 30 days of diesel and jet fuel, so there is supply continuing to come in. And those measures that we announced yesterday were designed to make sure that we will continue to get fuel into this country in the months ahead as well. ANDREW CLENNELL: But you can see why ordinary families would go, ‘look, every time I go to the bowser now, I've got to fill up’ because more and more bowsers are shutting and the price is going up and up.

You can't really criticise people for that, can you? MURRAY WATT: I'm not criticising people for wanting to make sure that they've got a full tank of fuel in their car. I think, though, we have seen some examples of people going well beyond what they actually need.

And that's, of course, the demand spike that we saw a week or two ago that really started to play havoc with fuel supplies. But look, I'm not being critical of people trying to make sure that they've got the fuel that they need. I understand that.

And I understand that there's a high degree of uncertainty and anxiety in the community at the moment. We haven't had to deal with these kind of situations for a long time in Australia. But that's why the Government is taking the steps that we need, like what we announced yesterday, like the action to double the penalties on the fuel companies if they're gouging people, releasing 20 per cent of our fuel reserves.

We're pulling a range of levers to make sure that we can get the fuel where it needs to be. And we are asking Australians to be sensible in their choices as well. ANDREW CLENNELL: I mean, there's a report today of a doubling of fuel theft.

What do you make of that? MURRAY WATT: Yeah, I think that's incredibly disappointing behaviour that we're seeing, you know, from a very small number of Australians doing the wrong thing. You know, our service stations are under extreme pressure at the moment.

I've also seen in those reports people working at service stations copping more abuse than they normally would. That's not fair. And again, that's not the Australian way to take it out on people who are working behind a counter in a service station.

People should, of course, be paying for the fuel that they're consuming. We don't need our service stations having even more financial trouble. So, again, that's another example of needing people to do the right thing by each other.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Is it the Government's position that demand is the main problem still, or do you acknowledge supply is also a problem? MURRAY WATT: Well, we have seen that spike in demand over the last couple of weeks, Andrew. That's an undeniable fact.

And again, I understand why people may have reacted the way that they did, but that has caused issues in terms of fuel being available throughout the country. In terms of supply, we are continuing to see the cargoes arrive as planned. You will have seen that there were some cargo ships that were cancelled, but they've been more than replaced with replacement voyages.

And as I say, the step that we took yesterday is all about shoring up future supplies as well. What that was about yesterday was saying, you know, we understand that fuel importers are worried about the price they will receive for the product after they pay top dollar. And this gives them some confidence that they won't be suffering those kind of losses and therefore they can have confidence to bring more fuel into the country.

ANDREW CLENNELL: If you say demand is the problem, I mean, we saw this with COVID and the toilet paper. Is it time to restrict motorists purchasing fuel? MURRAY WATT: We don't think that's necessary at this point in time, Andrew - ANDREW CLENNELL: But it might be.

MURRAY WATT: That's not on our agenda - ANDREW CLENNELL: Do you rule it out? MURRAY WATT: I'm not getting into ruling things in and ruling things out, Andrew. But the Prime Minister made clear yesterday that his strong preference is to make sure that people use common sense, be considerate of each other, rather than having to move to mandates.

You know, we've got 39 days of fuel in this country at the moment, which is more than we had under the Coalition. We've got 30 days of diesel, 30 days of jet fuel, and we're taking the steps needed to make sure that that supply can continue into the future. ANDREW CLENNELL: Is that because of the revulsion, including in polling, I guess, about COVID mandates, that the PM's decided mandates isn't the way to go?

MURRAY WATT: Look, I'm not sure that anyone's consulted opinion polls in making this sort of decision. I think it's a belief that the Australian people can exercise common sense here. I mean, I think when we saw those incidents involving toilet paper, I think most people just looked at it and thought the people engaging that behaviour weren't doing the right thing by each other.

So, you know, we do have the fuel that we need in Australia, but we do have some issues in getting it where it needs to be and they are being worked through. You would have seen yesterday in his press conference, Chris Bowen talked about the changes that are happening and that that is starting to get more fuel into the regions that need it to happen and that will continue.

ANDREW CLENNELL: What's the best government advice to people thinking about taking a road trip for Easter and the school holidays? MURRAY WATT: Look, we want to see people continue with their holiday plans. We recognise that there are going to be some families who are going to need to make hard decisions based on their budget.

Everyone's going to be in a different situation there. But as a blanket rule, we don't want to see people deciding to cancel their holidays because of concerns that they may not be able to get fuel. Of course, the tourism industry in Australia relies on the Easter period as one of its peak periods.

And if people have already got plans, then we'd encourage them to continue with that to the extent that their household budget allows them to do so. ANDREW CLENNELL: Will you look at cutting petrol excise as Angus Taylor's recommended? He's saying we should have a three month, 50 per cent cut at a cost of 1.5 billion.

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, well again, as I said at the outset, Andrew, I'll take whatever Angus Taylor says on fuel supply with a grain of salt, given his record as the energy minister. But the Government has and will continue to provide cost of living relief to Australians. Again, most of the cost of living relief we've provided up until now has been opposed by Angus Taylor and the Opposition.

They opposed our tax cuts, they've opposed the cheaper medicines, they oppose the energy rebates when they were around as well. So, you know, I'm very happy to put our record up against the Opposition’s when it comes to supporting people in their time of need. You know, any decisions that we made about further cost of living relief would need to be made in the context of the budget which is only a few weeks away, so we’ll leave any further announcements - ANDREW CLENNELL: So, it could happen?

Could happen? Could happen? As I reported, could happen?

MURRAY WATT: Well again, I'm not going to get into ruling things in and ruling things out. Andrew, we're in the middle of making a budget at the moment. It is a tight budget and it's been made that much harder as a result of the international conflict that we're seeing at the moment.

But in the meantime we're still going to proceed with the cost of living relief that we took to the last election, which includes another round of tax cuts starting July 1 that were opposed by Angus Taylor. ANDREW CLENNELL: Just had to throw that one in there, didn't you? Now look, the decision to - MURRAY WATT: Well, it's a fact.

ANDREW CLENNELL: The decision to release more dirty fuel into the system, that's a decision the Government's made. Do you have any concerns as Environment Minister around that? MURRAY WATT: Look, I don't think that we expect any of those sorts of measures to be permanent, Andrew.

It's a response to the very unusual situation that we find ourselves in at the moment. Certainly the Government remains just as committed towards our energy transition as we were prior to this conflict. And if anything, I think what this conflict has shown is that we need to be as self reliant as we possibly can when it comes to our fuel supplies.

You can only imagine where we'd be if we hadn't begun that transition towards more electrification of our economy, of our vehicle fleet and things like that as well. But look, I think as I say, in terms of those particular measures, they're temporary measures that are made in response to a pretty difficult situation. ANDREW CLENNELL: How bad is this economic crisis going to get?

Do you believe in the view of economists that published yesterday that inflation could hit the mid 6s if the war keeps going by June, are we going to see several more interest rate rises this year? Is that possible? MURRAY WATT: Well, I mean, we've been honest about the fact that Australia continues to have an inflation challenge and had one prior to this conflict.

Of course this conflict is going to make things more difficult when it comes to the inflation front. There's a range of different forecasts around about where it might end up, but I think it's very likely that we're going to see an increase to inflation. I think the other thing we need to bear in mind though is that Australia goes into this conflict with some very strong economic fundamentals compared to the rest of the world.

Of course, we've paid down more than $100 billion of Liberal debt that we inherited - ANDREW CLENNELL: Well, you've got higher inflation, you've got higher inflation than the rest of the world going in though, don't you, than many countries? MURRAY WATT: As I say, we had an inflation challenge going into this and that was something that we were already in the process of tackling.

But we've also got stronger economic growth than the rest of the world. We've got much lower unemployment than the rest of the world. And that's remained at that level for a long time.

So, we do have some strong building blocks, as I say, reducing the debt in the budget, reducing the deficits that we inherited. But we recognise that this is going to have an impact on the budget and make the framing of it that much more difficult. ANDREW CLENNELL: Was it responsible for the Government this week to demand an above inflation wage rise?] MURRAY WATT: We absolutely stand by that decision, Andrew.

What we're talking about here is, I think it's around the 3 million lowest paid workers in the country. We're not talking about high flyers, we're not talking about people who are on enterprise bargaining agreements. We're talking about the cleaners, the janitors, in some cases the care workers who are paid the lowest wage in the country and they are the ones who are feeling the pinch greatest at the moment.

What we've said in our submission was that we think that the wage rise should be economically sustainable and that will need to be taken into account by the Fair Work Commission when they're making that decision. So, we're not talking about a wage rise across the economy above inflation. We're talking about the lowest paid workers in this country and making sure that that wage rise is still economically sustainable.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Do you agree with my report that some of the housing tax reforms that Jim Chalmers has been pushing will not be allowed through by the Prime Minister now, given the economic conditions? MURRAY WATT: Again, we're right in the middle of the budget negotiations at the moment, Andrew, and we will have more to say about all of those types of things in early May when we release the Budget.

Of course, the situation that we're seeing around the world, the inflationary impact of it, are things that our Expenditure Review Committee is taking into account in finalising its decisions. I think we've said previously that this means that a lot of the decisions that we make will need to be made later in the Budget preparation than they normally would because things are so volatile at the moment.

But look, we haven't made any decisions on that front yet, but I'm sure that they'll all be informed by the situation that we're seeing at the moment. ANDREW CLENNELL: A lot of talk about One Nation's performance at the South Australian election last week. A pretty high primary vote.

Do they present a danger for Labor as well as the Coalition? MURRAY WATT: Yeah, look, I think, you know, clearly the bulk of the support that One Nation has generated in recent months is off the back of the Coalition vote. We've seen a total collapse, whether it be in opinion polls or at recent elections like South Australia, in the Liberal Party vote and the National Party vote, and that's pretty much gone straight across to One Nation.

But we're absolutely not complacent in the Labor team about the potential impact of One Nation on our vote as well. You know, we know that people are feeling economic pain at the moment, and that is a time when people do look at those more extreme solutions. But what we'll be reminding people of is what One Nation not just say, but what they do when they come to Parliament, when they vote against higher pay rises, when they vote against cheaper medicines, when they vote against more housing funding.

All the kind of things that Labor battlers who might be thinking about One Nation are looking to their government to do, One Nation votes against. But I think if there's one thing that we learned from that South Australian election result, it is that there is absolutely no possibility after the next federal election that we would see a Liberal National Party government without having to rely on One Nation.

We're in a new paradigm in Australian politics now that we haven't been in before, where the Liberals can only govern with One Nation as part of their team, and One Nation can only govern as part of a Liberal Party coalition. So, what people will need to think about is that if they vote Liberal, they're going to get a coalition with Pauline Hanson. If they vote for One Nation, they're going to get all the cuts that the Liberal Party will always take to an election.

ANDREW CLENNELL: Well, that's a new line of attack. Murray Watt, just finally - MURRAY WATT: On that, Andrew, I mean, you'll remember John Howard's famous quote that the iron law of politics is arithmetic. The arithmetic here says that the Liberals can only govern with One Nation and One Nation can only govern with the Liberals.

It is a mathematical fact. ANDREW CLENNELL: Well, as the polls stand now, as the polls stand now, that can change. But Murray Watt, just finally it seems the social media ban for under 16s isn't working.

And as I understand it, the Government is concerned the eSafety Commissioner is not doing enough to take action against the social media companies. Do you think we'll see that sort of action shortly? And what do you have to say to the parents out there who are seeing their 12 and 13 year olds still on Instagram and TikTok?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, look, Andrew, we're still really proud of the fact that we've led the world with these reforms and we're now seeing a range of other countries pick them up as well. We have seen already about 4 million accounts disabled. But we do have concerns that the social media giants aren't doing enough to comply with these laws.

The decision to prosecute rests in the hands of the independent eSafety Commissioner. I understand that they'll have more to say before too long about this and around their compliance approach, but we do have concerns that the social media giants are still not doing enough to meet their legal obligations and we intend for them to take them very seriously. ANDREW CLENNELL: Murray Watt, thanks so much for your time.

MURRAY WATT: Thanks, Andrew. We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture. We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.