Interview with Sarah Ferguson, ABC 7.30

SARAH FERGUSON, HOST: Chris Bowen, welcome to 7.30. MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE AND ENERGY, CHRIS BOWEN: Great to be back, Sarah. You said there is fuel supply to Australia, quote, well into May, so when in May and what happens after that?

Well, Sarah, as you know, up until recently I've been saying through April, but each order that Australia enters into provides that little bit more comfort. These orders happen four weeks to six weeks in advance is how the industry works. We have so far had no expected delivery in Australia that hasn't arrived.

We did have six forward orders cancelled, but they have been replaced and more through spot cargoes. So that's why I now say well into May. I've been providing updates on that in a factual way since this international crisis began to just try and share with Australians the facts and the facts are now well into May, we have contracted, legally bound, obliged orders into Australia that must be delivered and that's a good thing.

We've been working closely with the industry and industry has been diversifying their supply as well from refineries over above those from which they normally get fuel. Does that mean that in the middle of May or from the middle of May onwards, it's just too far into the future for you to be able to give a clear answer at this time? I'll never give an assurance that I can't back up with the facts and the fact is we have contracted orders now well into May.

I'll update, you know, I've been doing it daily for the last period, every day over Easter, for example, providing those sorts of updates about domestic and international situation. I'll continue to do that. We have, you know, we're pleased with the way it's going, but we've always been frank that there's huge supply disruption and the biggest energy shock in world history, it's been called by the IEA.

So of course it has implications, but everything that could possibly be done has been done and is being done to secure Australia's fuel supply and we have strong degree of confidence in the orders and also excellent conversations with our trading partners. As late as today, I was speaking to my Malaysian counterpart. The Prime Minister has announced he's going to Singapore to cement the arrangements that he's already entered into with the Prime Minister of Singapore and we've been very pleased with the response from our trading partners.

So just talk to me specifically about Malaysia. They have been getting some oil through the Strait of Hormuz during the crisis. So you are confident that all of the oil that we were expecting from Malaysia will continue to flow?

Malaysia, of course, refines that oil into refined products, petrol and diesel. Yes, they have been more successful than some countries in getting some through the Strait of Hormuz. Still, you know, small amounts compared to what used to happen, but they've also been diversifying their supply of crude oil from other countries as well.

So everyone's working together to maximise our chances of getting through this with minimal disruption to the best of our abilities. Now you put, as it were, money, just in simple terms, you put money aside to help companies buy fuel from spot cargoes. Have you actually done that yet?

Have you entered into any contracts as the government and if so, how much money are you spending? So what we did was pass urgent legislation. This was done in lightning speed to give Export Finance Australia, to explain to our viewers, the capacity now to work with importers to share some of the risk, because importers told me, one, the cargoes are available, but two, they're very expensive, and three, it's very risky because the oil price is moving around so much, and it takes a long time for the ships to get to Australia.

If the price falls dramatically while the ship's on the way to Australia, they're very exposed. So we thought that was fair enough. I can tell you Export Finance Australia has been working all through Easter, is in very advanced discussions with companies, and really that is now extremely well advanced.

I'm not in a position to announce any deals tonight, but I can tell you a lot of people have been working very hard in the industry and with Export Finance Australia to make these available. So that means we will get information on – We’ll provide updates. The money that's being spent on those cargoes.

I'll provide factual updates as that situation continues to evolve, but I do want to give a shout out to everyone who's been working hard over Easter to really operationalise that legislation that we passed urgently. So it's reported, it's been reported tonight, that Australia is participating in a conference call hosted by the British military, 40 countries discussing how, militarily, to secure the passage of tankers through the Strait of Hormuz.

What can Australia bring to that discussion? Well, Australia will participate in that call at an official's level. The Deputy Prime Minister is on his way to Japan.

He won't be participating, but our position has been very clear. We will be – So, who's on the call if Richard Marles isn’t on the call? An official, a defence official.

Our position that we won't be participating in any offensive action remains. Let me be very clear about that. So what could we do to ensure a coalition, given it's such a disparate group of countries with disparate capabilities, what could we bring?

I think it's appropriate that we participate in a call with like-minded countries. That doesn't oblige Australia to take any action, and our position has been very clear and remains very clear about participation in any offensive action. But if we are taking part in a call, are we moving closer to being part of a coalition put together by European countries and the UK and excluding the US?

We're participating in a call, Sarah. I would not put it any less or more than that. Now, just on the issue of supply, we've heard a lot from the opposition over recent days, before and during Easter, we must dig and we must drill is the language they're using.

Now, between I think 2016 and 2020, a number of oil companies in Australia had a look at drilling in the Great Australian Bight. They all said it wasn't commercially viable. Would the government consider subsidising drilling in Australia?

I think there's an attempt to drag this into a culture war, Sarah, and I refuse to go there. Decisions about whether to drill should be based on the economics and the engineering and if it meets the environmental approvals, then it can happen and should happen. If it replaces oil imports, I think most sensible people would recognise that's a good thing, but it's got to pass those economics and engineering tests.

This is not a test of ideology. Matt Canavan, when he was Resources Minister, issued licences for drilling in the Great Australian Bight. Fair enough, he had a go.

Those licences were handed back because the companies said it's geologically too hard, too deep, too expensive. Those economics and engineering haven't changed. It's not a matter of an ideologically...

So it's not ideological for you if… Well, I think the Coalition wouldn't mind a culture war about it, but I'm not going to give you one… But if the economics changed, I mean, it's a pretty massive thing for me to say. I understand that, because these are significant economics. Yeah, this is the economics and the engineering, and obviously the more complicated the engineering, the harder the economics.

I doubt the engineering has changed. It's still just as deep as it was. It's still as geologically challenged as it was.

If someone can make it work economically and in an engineering sense, well, good luck to them. But no one's been able to make it work so far. What this crisis has revealed to all of us, but also to government, was how low Australia's stocks were before this crisis got underway.

Are you discussing, is the government looking at increasing those fuel stocks to the levels recommended by the International Energy Agency? Well, we've had the minimum stock obligations since 2023. That's a requirement on the companies to hold a certain amount of stock in Australia.

Until then, they've been held in Texas, which wouldn't have been very useful in this particular crisis at all. The International Energy Agency… Is that correct because you could have put it on the water and brought it in four to five weeks? Yeah, well, that's, when I released 20% of the minimum stock obligation, Sarah, it flowed quickly.

Yes, it takes time to get from Brisbane and Geelong to the regions. It's quicker to get from Brisbane to the regions of Queensland than it is from Texas, with respect. So it has been much handier to have that fuel held locally.

The International Energy Agency test is quite different about a separate matter. I understand that's for emergencies, but do you… Well, it's not for domestic supply. It's for releases to the global market, to help with oil prices.

It's not about domestic supply. But do you recognise that there is an essential truth that underpins that, which is that our stocks were low. They are low, relatively speaking, compared to other countries, including other countries in the Asia-Pacific.

Are you looking at increasing them? Well, a lot of those stocks, other countries hold overseas, not in their home country. But obviously, we've worked hard to get those stocks to where they are, and that's been very important to us.

When we're through this, obviously, that can be a sensible conversation. But I would say, people, it's easier to say we should have 90 days in Australia. I've seen my opposition spokesman say that recently.

It costs $20 billion over four years to get that in domestic supply. So, if people want to suggest that, they're going to have to pay for it. You know, they criticise us for spending too much money, and then, based on what I see, saying, well, we'll spend $20 billion over four years to lift domestic supply, it's easier said than done.

Let me ask you just a question about President Trump. This is a hard one for you to answer with full honesty, but it is true to say that many Australians are horrified and baffled by the behaviour of this US president. They're told by the government all the time that the US is our indispensable ally.

Can you find the words to explain to your fellow Australians why they should trust and rely on this US president? Well, Australians will make their own decisions, of course, about their views about the President of the United States. If you're referring to his comments recently, obviously, Australia expects every party to abide by humanitarian laws and international law.

I'm not going to, I haven't made a comment, a habit of commenting on Donald Trump's social media for the best part of 10 years, and I don't intend to start now because it will just keep us all very busy. But why should we trust and rely upon him in this crisis? Well, again, Australia and the United States have a long history of working together.

That is in the best interest of both countries. Again, I'm not going to get drawn into every tweet or social truth, truth social iteration from the President. Australia conducts its foreign policy under this government based on our values and our interests.

And that indicates, you know, the President has made some comments about Australia. I'll just repeat, the Albanese government makes our decisions based on Australia's values and Australia's interests, not anyone else's. Chris Bowen, thank you very much indeed.

Great to chat, Sarah. Thank you. We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture.

We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.