Interview with Natalie Barr, Channel 7 Sunrise

NATALIE BARR, HOST: For more, we are joined by President Chris Bowen. Mr. President, should I call you?

Most people would agree protecting our environment is obviously important, but does the Office of the Presidency need $150 million? CHRIS BOWEN: Well, let me just make a couple of points, Mel. NATALIE BARR: CHRIS BOWEN: Firstly, the cost of actual- the COP is $50 million as part of a broader $150 million engagement in the Pacific which is important for a whole bunch of reasons including our geopolitical interests as a country, Mel, so that's important.

Dan Tehan's been lying about those costs. It's a lot of money. These things do come at a cost.

When John Howard chaired APEC, it cost money. When Tony Abbott chaired G20, it cost money. Labor supported those because we were in opposition at the time, but we said, no, this is good for the country.

We've got lots of disagreements with John Howard and Tony Abbott, but we hope you succeed at this task. This is good for Australia because it gives us greater influence. Now, a lot of these things would happen anyway.

Governments, even under Scott Morrison and Tony Abbott, went to COP and participated in COP, but it cost money. The difference is this time we have more influence. Now, the Liberal Party says we're only 1 per cent of emissions, so we shouldn't bother.

When we have a chance to influence 100 per cent of emissions, they say this is terrible too. So this is very important for Australia and for our region and for the Pacific to actually have a chance to impact on some of these international discussions. We're keeping costs as low as possible.

There'll be lots of different speculation. NATALIE BARR: Are you though? CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah.

And this could have cost … NATALIE BARR: [Interrupts] We agree. Yeah, look. We agree … CHRIS BOWEN: And this could have cost a lot more, Nat.

NATALIE BARR: … it's important. CHRIS BOWEN: This would have cost a lot more. It cost a lot more for John Howard to chair APEC, a lot more for Tony Abbott to chair G20.

NATALIE BARR: CHRIS BOWEN: Because we're doing it actually not in Australia primarily, we're doing it in another country, in Turkiye … NATALIE BARR: CHRIS BOWEN: … they're taking a lot of the costs. This is a good outcome for Australia. NATALIE BARR: Okay.

So you say you're doing the best to keep costs down, but then- first of all, the difference I guess you could say, is we're in a cost of living crisis and people are tightening their belts. And then they pick up the paper this morning and they read that your guys, and women, spent $485,602 on trips to Turkey, Fiji, Germany and Korea. Was that just in January and February?

And did they all fly business class? CHRIS BOWEN: They would have flown the normal standard of travel for public servitude, which is business class, which is the same under all governments. And again, look … NATALIE BARR: Even to Fiji?

That's three hours from Sydney. CHRIS BOWEN: Well- and again, like- you know, Scott Morrison took 30 people to COP in Glasgow and had no influence … NATALIE BARR: Are we still talking about a previous government? CHRIS BOWEN: And had no influence.

NATALIE BARR: Let's talk about now. CHRIS BOWEN: NATALIE BARR: You know, you guys have been in for four years, so it's probably good to talk about you guys. CHRIS BOWEN: NATALIE BARR: So do you think it's appropriate for public servants to be flying business class on a … CHRIS BOWEN: Well, again … NATALIE BARR: … three-hour flight from Sydney to- or Canberra to Fiji?

CHRIS BOWEN: Look, there's always a value for money assessment given to every travel. Whether they should go, whether it can be done virtually, et cetera, these travel costs right across the government and governments of all persuasions and all departments are always worthy of investigation and scrutiny, don't mind that at all, but they'll always happen. There'll always be public servants travelling, representing our country.

Now, Fiji's a very important country in our region, Nat … NATALIE BARR: Not disputing that. CHRIS BOWEN: … it's a very important country in our region. Yeah.

NATALIE BARR: But it is four to- we've just Googled it, actually, the airfares. Canberra to Nandi, you can fly- business class is four to six times more than economy. And as you would know, because you talk to business people all the time, people are cutting back.

You have to be pretty high up in a company now to fly business class. Do you think that is worth that money? It's taxpayers' money.

CHRIS BOWEN: And these are very- pretty high up in the company, these are very senior public servants, and there are lots of travel that gets declined, lots of travel that public servants don't do. They say, no, look, that's not really good value for the taxpayer … NATALIE BARR: So half a million in a couple of months. You haven't even- is it right you haven't even put March and April in yet?

That was just for the two months? CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah. And obviously any government engaging, particularly in our region where there's lots to debate other countries about and make sure that Australia's influence is the biggest voice in the region as opposed to other countries, it does require travel.

It does require going to those countries. These are very senior public servants doing that. We're not talking about junior clerks.

We're talking about some of the most senior people in our public service. You made the point that you have to be pretty high up in business to fly a business class. That's fair.

That's a good point, Nat. And these are people pretty high up in the public service. NATALIE BARR: Okay.

Worth the money, then, according to you. Moving on, after all the noise that we've heard in the last couple of weeks, the Prime Minister is now looking at exempting some businesses from the capital gains tax overhaul we hear. Have you considered just pressing pause for a second on all this while all the consultation takes place instead of rushing it through in the next two days?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, I don't agree we're rushing it through. This is standard practise for tax reform, Nat. And this is big tax reform, necessary tax reform for fairness for young Australians in particular.

In my electorate, I can tell you over the last two weeks, what have people said to me? At last, someone's dealing with fairness to give young people a chance for the aspiration … NATALIE BARR: CHRIS BOWEN: … of getting into their own home. NATALIE BARR: They've said it like that, have they?

CHRIS BOWEN: NATALIE BARR: All of them, even the small businesses are all on board in your electorate? CHRIS BOWEN: Overwhelmingly, the feedback to me- yeah, overwhelmingly, the feedback to me in my electorate has been positive. People have had questions, fair enough.

But people also recognise that when you've got a young person trying to get into the property market, they're turning up at an auction against an investor. The investor has negative gearing in one pocket and the capital gains tax in the other, and they can bid more than a poor young person trying to get into a house. NATALIE BARR: You’re right.

And that is a common comment. It seems to be small businesses have a lot of other comments. So … CHRIS BOWEN: Yeah, sure.

And, of course, we respect that. NATALIE BARR: It just seems soon. CHRIS BOWEN: And we respect that, Nat.

But- and we are consulting about all those things. But that's a standard process for tax ... NATALIE BARR: Before Thursday.

CHRIS BOWEN: Well, as the PM's made clear, there'll be two tranches of legislation where we put the principles in place and then there's always finer implementation details. I mean, there's tax laws passed through Parliament every single sitting day which are changing things, tweaking things … NATALIE BARR: CHRIS BOWEN: … taking on board consultation. NATALIE BARR: So you put it through, then you consult – is that how it works?

CHRIS BOWEN: Well no, you have a parallel process where you're consulting while you're also preparing the laws. NATALIE BARR: While you’re- okay. Thank you very much, Minister.

I appreciate your time this morning. CHRIS BOWEN: Great, Nat. And we also have energy price reductions out today, which shows that our plan for renewable energy and for better pricing for Australians is working.

More to do, but it's very encouraging to see those big energy price reductions out today. NATALIE BARR: Okay, yeah, we've got a segment on that coming up, of those prices going down. Thank you very much.

CHRIS BOWEN: Good on you, Nat. We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture. We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.