Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC Afternoon Briefing

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: For more on some of the news of the day I want to bring in Environment Minister Murray Watt. Murray Watt, welcome to the program. MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: G'day, Patricia.

Good to be with you. PATRICIA KARVELAS: You've now released this process for negotiation and feedback on basically information and community engagement – new standards that you want to consult on. What are the new standards about?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah. So Patricia, this is a really important part of implementing those historic reforms to our national environmental law that the Senate passed at the end of last year. There was obviously a lot of publicity around those reforms, now we've got the hard job of actually getting on and implementing these reforms.

And if you look back at Graeme Samuel's review of the EPBC Act, he made the point that we needed to have new national environmental standards in place as benchmarks for decisions that are made whether to assess and approve different projects. We always said that one of the things that we wanted to achieve from these reforms was a balanced package that delivered stronger environmental protections and also made it much quicker and simpler to have projects assessed and approved, and these standards are a really important way of delivering that.

So, the two standards that we've released for consultation today, draft standards, relate to community engagement – how can we make sure that there is meaningful community engagement by a proponent when they're looking to build a particular project? Make sure that the community have full access to information about what the project involves, what impacts it's going to have on a local community and our local environment.

So, that's one of the standards. And the second standard that we've released today relates to the data and information that will be required of proponents when they're submitting their applications. We want to make sure that proponents put forward scientifically robust and accessible information that supports their projects and supports what they say the environmental impacts are going to be.

And those two standards that we've put out today come on top of two others that we have already released and recently finished the consultation on. So, this is really going to be the spine of these EPBC reforms as they now get implemented. We'll have the new Federal EPA up and running on 1 July, and we'll continue to roll out these reforms over the course of the year.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. One of the biggest changes we're seeing is a boom in data centres. How will these changes today pertain to applications for data centres, which are often very contentious?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah. So a couple of things on that, PK. I mean, when it comes to data centres, the way the federal environmental law works is that any project – whether it be a data centre, a mine, a wind farm, a housing development – if that project is likely to have a significant impact on one of the matters that we regulate at a federal level, then that project needs to be referred for a federal assessment and approval to make sure that its environmental impacts are managed, mitigated, and offset.

So, a data centre would be treated no differently to any other project. If they're going to have an impact on one of those things like threatened species or water triggers, water levels, then it would require assessment. But the best – PATRICIA KARVELAS: But data centres are – sorry to interrupt and be rude, but data centres clearly have massive impacts on the environment, particularly their water use.

MURRAY WATT: PATRICIA KARVELAS: So it seems to me that data centres would very much have to go before the new laws. MURRAY WATT: Well certainly, as I say, if any individual proposal is likely to impact on one of those nationally protected matters, it would need to be assessed and approved federally. But the second point is that we already have developed expectations of data centres, which we are now following through in work that we're doing with states and territories around managing the energy and water use of those data centres.

You are absolutely right. The data centres, while they can bring a lot of economic gain to a country like Australia, if we don't manage them properly in terms of their energy use and their water use that will be a negative for the country. So my colleague, Chris Bowen, has been doing a lot of work with the state energy ministers around making sure that data centres come to the table supplying more renewable energy to power their data centres – not just draw on what's available at the moment.

And when it comes to water, I'm having similar discussions with state and territory water ministers about how we can also make sure that data centres are built in a way that don't end up depriving the country of the water that we desperately need. PATRICIA KARVELAS: And will it be enforceable, that there's actually a consequence if they are drawing on other water?

Because one of the critiques, as you know, is that this is all, you know, best practice guidelines rather than being enforceable. MURRAY WATT: Yeah. So I guess we've approached this in a couple of ways, PK.

So my colleagues, Tim Ayres and Andrew Charlton, who have the lead on AI and data centres within the Government, have set out those expectations from our Government about what we do expect of data centre developers. But they are then being made enforceable, if you like, through arrangements that we reach with state and territories. Water is a good example.

A lot of the responsibilities when it comes to water management in Australia are held at the state level. And so what we need to do is work with states to make sure that they have good, strong, enforceable systems setting those requirements of data centres when it comes to water use. So, I can assure you and your viewers that we are absolutely on to the environmental impacts that data centres may have, and those discussions are very well advanced with state and territory ministers, particularly around energy.

And when I meet with water ministers in August this year, we'll follow up discussions that we've already had when it comes to water use as well. PATRICIA KARVELAS: I just want to change the topic if we can? The Trade Minister, Don Farrell, says he doesn't think Labor has anything to fear from One Nation, following another poll showing that more voters are interested in One Nation – they've leapfrogged Labor, of course.

Do you agree you've got nothing to worry about? MURRAY WATT: Well, I think Don has made the self-evident point that the vast majority of support that has gone to One Nation has come straight off the back of the Liberal and National Party votes. We've seen the Liberal and National Party votes in freefall now for many months.

Every time they say that something's going to make that change, and every time their numbers get worse. From a Labor perspective, you know, we don't take the situation for granted. We acknowledge that there has been a small drop in the polls from us, potentially to other parties, including One Nation.

And it's a reminder to us that we need to remain really focused on the issue that concerns Australians more than anything else, which is cost of living pressures. You know, that's why that was such a central focus of our attention when it came to the Budget – delivering those tax cuts for every single working Australian, trying to even out the taxation arrangements between those who work for a living and those who own assets.

So, we'll keep that focus up and, at the same time, continue to expose the fact that One Nation say that they're on the side of working people, but when they come here to Canberra, they vote with the Liberals against wage rises, against tax cuts for working people, against cheaper medicines. PATRICIA KARVELAS: Doesn’t it – sure, you can list it, but doesn't it sound rather arrogant to suggest there's nothing to worry about for Labor?

They've leapfrogged you in the polls. You can say that they're taking support off the Coalition, but it's pretty obvious that they're also taking support off you. MURRAY WATT: Well as I say, we don't take anything for granted in Labor, and we know that we've got to remain focused on those issues of concern to Australians.

And I believe that we can point to our record as recently as today, as last week, where we are delivering that kind of cost of living support that Australians are calling for, and then we see One Nation vote with the Liberals and Nationals to oppose that. I mean, it's up to the One Nation Party to explain to battlers out there how voting against wage rises and voting against tax cuts for working people is helping those people – PATRICIA KARVELAS: MURRAY WATT: – I don't see how they can do that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let me take you to something else. Liberal Party President and former Prime Minister Tony Abbott has endorsed the Coalition's swapping preferences with One Nation. He says it's – that cooperation on the right side of politics is equivalent to Labor-Greens cooperation on the left.

Do you think that's a fair comparison? You do swap preferences with the Greens. MURRAY WATT: We do in most cases, but I think there's a pretty significant difference here, PK.

Which is, no one is suggesting there is any prospect of the Greens Party winning anywhere near the kind of seats that One Nation is potentially going to gain. So, I mean, I think – PATRICIA KARVELAS: So does that mean, on that metric – I have to pick you up there – that if there was polling to show that, you'd have to hold back and think, well, I'd better not swap preferences with the Greens, they might win too many seats?

MURRAY WATT: Well, I'm happy to have that conversation with you when we get to that point, PK. But you will have seen that, at the last federal election, the Labor Party targeted very heavily seats that were held by the Greens, and we managed to win three of them. So, we've taken a different approach in dealing with the Greens to what we're seeing from the Liberals and One Nation.

We actively campaigned to win seats that were held by the Greens Party, and we won three out of the four of those seats that the Greens held. What we're seeing from the Liberal Party is them completely putting up the white flag to One Nation. They're proving absolutely that the Liberals can't govern without One Nation, One Nation can't govern without the Liberals.

That is an absolute recipe for chaos and division within this country. I mean, Tony Abbott and Angus Taylor will go down as the leaders of the Liberal Party who manage to elect more One Nation members to the Federal Parliament. Is that really what they want their legacy to be?

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just finally, Apple CEO Tim Cook has credited Australia's social media ban for under-16’s as some inspiration for the tech giant's new online safety controls for children – Prime Minister saying that he got a call from Tim Cook. Can you see more cooperation with Apple on some of these things? MURRAY WATT: Well, we certainly welcome the fact that Apple have taken a leading position amongst tech companies in recognising that there are very real harms to children emerging from some of the new technologies that we've all adopted over the last couple of decades.

It's a good thing that Apple have recognised this, and we certainly would encourage other tech companies to do the same thing. I think all Australians, not just people in the Government but all Australians, should feel really proud of the fact that our country is leading the way when it comes to regulation of social media and that we're managing to get other countries to follow suit, and now seeing tech companies come on board as well.

And just to bring it back to that data centre point, PK, Australia stands to be in a really good position in working with the rest of the world in putting in place the regulation and policies that we need around AI, because we've now got good credentials when it comes to social media practices as well. These are very real issues concerning many Australian families, and I'm glad that Apple have come on board.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: The eSafety Commissioner said last week she didn't think the laws were necessary and that they were rushed – she said this in a longer magazine piece. She's actually in charge of enforcing them. MURRAY WATT: Yeah look, I must admit I haven't seen that piece, PK, but we don't back away from the fact that we put in place those laws.

There were and are very real harms being committed against younger people in Australia through social media platforms. We believed it was necessary to take action. And again, I think you can see from the fact that other countries are doing similar things, this is a worldwide concern, and I'm really proud of the fact that Australia was leading the charge.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, I'm about to speak with Dr Monique Ryan about her concerns around the NDIS cuts. I don't want to go to the substantive cuts. I know what your lives and views are on the need for a change to the NDIS, but I can ask something about scrutiny.

Three days isn't enough to look at such big changes, is it? MURRAY WATT: Well, in terms of parliamentary inquiries, that's a pretty reasonable length of time, PK – you don't have a lot of inquiries that go for a longer period of time. And this is an issue that has been widely debated in the Australian community over the last few months and years.

That's why I think we do feel in a responsible position to be arguing that we do need to make significant changes to the NDIS for its future sustainability. Three days allows for a lot of examination of this – PATRICIA KARVELAS: It looks like the Government's scared of scrutiny. MURRAY WATT: No.

What it looks like is a Government that's determined to make change. That's one of the messages we're getting through the polls and through the move to One Nation, is that many Australians are not happy with the current system. We're a Government that is determined to make change – whether it be to the NDIS, to our taxation system, to bringing back more bulk billing.

We've got to make some changes in this country to have a sustainable budget in the future but to have a fairer country as well. That's what we're about. PATRICIA KARVELAS: Minister, many thanks for joining me this afternoon.

MURRAY WATT: Thanks, PK. We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture. We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.