Television interview - Sky News Afternoon Agenda

TOM CONNELL, HOST: Welcome back. Joining me to thrash out the political week that was, or will be I guess, we're previewing the week more than anything else. Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, Patrick Gorman and former Liberal MP Jason Falinski.

I might start with you, Patrick. We've got this snap inquiry over Labor's proposed changes on CGT, negative gearing. We've heard a lot from the PM: we're just taking it back to pre-2000, when things got out of control.

One of the things you used to be able to do, was to be able to have the profit you made from an investment to be averaged out over the years that you actually held the investment. So, is that the sort of principle you're going back to, are you open to this sort of change? PATRICK GORMAN, ASSISTANT MINISTER TO THE PRIME MINISTER: The view we came to, Tom, was that the fairest way to do it was to go to taxing real gains with recognising the impact of inflation and what that does to people's investments.

Of course, we've got this inquiry happening at the moment. We will see what recommendations that inquiry puts forward. But the conclusion we've come to is that the package that's in the Budget is the right package to have a more effective tax system for all Australians, including working Australians and those who choose to invest.

Where you've got more incentive for people to make investments based on what is right for them, rather than just because of some distortions in the tax system. : But I mean, when you say tax on real gains, when someone has a house for five years and maybe it goes up 30 per cent, that house didn't go up 30 per cent in the year they sold it, it went along at five or six per cent.

So, isn't the fairest and most logical tax of a real gain, averaging that gain out over the five years? : It's not the conclusion we've come to in terms of the package that we put forward - But that's the logic. But that is the logic, isn't it? House prices don't do nothing for four years, and go up 30 per cent, do they? : We will take into account inflation and the impact that that's had on people's gains over that period of time.

That's the appropriate way for us to put forward a package to fix a tax system that was not working for too many Australians. It was putting too much of the tax burden on working people, and it was meaning that those same working people were struggling to get into our housing system. I am encouraged by what we're hearing anecdotally so far about people being able to go well at an auction and get into a home of their own, I want to see more of that.

Our Budget measures mean 75,000 more Australians will be able to get into a home of their own. That is a good thing. : Jason, is there any concern from a strategy point of view that the Coalition - it's blanketly opposed to these changes - that the message for voters is the Coalition says, 'oh well, everything about the housing market is pretty good?' JASON FALINKSI, FORMER LIBERAL MP: No, the Coalition says the opposite, Tom.

The Coalition has said for years, going back to when I was there, that there aren't enough houses getting built. Then you put on top of that the huge amount of migrants that came into this country after Covid and you've got a recipe for what has been a housing crisis for the last four years. These taxes don't change any of that.

And all I would say to you and Patrick is if these are such a good idea for individuals, then why don't you apply them to industry Super? Would it be because they're some of your largest donors? : On the cost of a house, Jason - so, I did see the Productivity Commission basically said, go harder on this. And the average red tape on a house is $200,000, which is staggering.

So, given that, does the Coalition need to go, here are our policies, here's a dollar amount that comes off red tape? Not, 'oh, we'll do this, we'll scrap that'. Couldn't it actually go to that and have a policy that would literally say, 'here's 50,000 off every new house'.

Well, Tom, a question like that deserves this response. You need to have Andrew Bragg on your program more often because that's exactly what he's been saying. He's been making the point that it is illegal for people to build cost effective houses in Australia.

And that has happened under this Government since 2022. We have made it so bad that it's not funny. And to have people like Senator Ayers think it's funny by saying, 'oh, well, we don't believe in leaky verandas' is just extraordinary. : What they have done, what the Labor Party has done, what the Teals have done, what the Greens have done, has made affordable housing illegal in Australia. : Jason, I really am going to push you on this.

You're saying that somehow, there's been some sort of a law change. The laws that we've put through the Parliament have been to build more social housing. Laws that some of your friends, including Senator Bragg, opposed.

They were the laws to establish the Housing Australia Future Fund. They are the sorts of laws this Government has put in place in addition to, as you well know, freezing the building code so that we can have good stability for those building houses for their fellow Australians. : It's walking it back, I guess. And for the record, Andrew Bragg has been a regular.

We haven't seen him the past couple of Fridays, but he's always welcome back. : Well, questions like that are just going to get you more of Andrew. : Well, we've gone through - we got to the strength of bathroom walls, Jason, because if they're built strong enough, then - Of course you did. : Well, it's an interesting part of it. If they're built strong enough and you need to amend it for an older Australian for a handrail, you don't have to knock the whole wall down.

So, actually that saves money for - : Absolutely. It’s a very important issue. Yeah.

Because there's this thing called technological innovation which, you know, if you're looking at something that's happening today and trying to forecast 20 years into the future - because government intervention has always made everything better, hasn't it, Tom? : Alright, well, I think a strong wall is a strong wall if you want to hold someone's weight up. : Oh, yeah, absolutely.

No, no, very important. I'm glad you guys got to talk about that at length. It's a shame that no one will be able to afford the houses in which the strong walls are in, but, you know, that's fine. : Well, my point was, we've gone to the detail.

Anyway. I can feel the viewers loving the strong wall talk. : They're searching for that transcript right now. They can't wait to read it. : Let me ask you this, though, Pat, because the Productivity Commission, you know, when it's putting out a report right now, it's saying to Labor, go harder.

You've got this National Productivity Commission fund and it says there should be a lot more money in it. Are you going to listen? : We have always said when it comes to housing, that the measures that we've put out there was the start of our ambition, not the end. We want to see serious change when it comes to the sorts of opportunities that people have to have a secure roof over their head.

Whether that be in social and affordable housing, or when it comes to having more Australians buying their own homes. We will always treat the suggestions of the Productivity Commission with respect. Of course, they're talking about a program that our Government started, to incentivise the states and territories to build more homes.

We will continue to work with those strong partnerships we have with the states and territories to get more homes for more Australians built, including the really important work we're doing around first home buyers. Making sure that we have new developments to help first home buyers get a home of their own. : I’m a bit wary of this next one, because I feel like - : So, I’m going to push Pat on this because I feel like if he gets to push me on, you know, strong bathroom walls.

So, Pat, how much money have you spent in that fund over the last three years? : Jason, as you would know - $10 billion. Let me just make it a thing. So $10 billion, how many homes have built - : No.

You're asking - if we're talking about the incentive funds for the states and territories. They are paid as they meet the various targets that state and territories themselves have signed up to. You know precisely that I’m talking about the - And if it comes to the investment that was made in the Housing Australia Future fund, that was a $10 billion investment, and the returns on that fund then go and fund an ongoing build of social and affordable housing that is part of a $47 billion package of policies that we have.

We make no apology for having housing and home ownership as - I’m glad you don’t apologise, since it's so important. : It's not changing the price of housing. That keeps going up and people can’t afford it. : I'm jumping in. Jason, you've had your weekly go at my job.

Let me ask you this - polling for the Coalition, it's somehow getting worse. Is the Coalition trying to, sort of, be One Nation-light, and is that an error? : Well, if we are trying to do that, which I don't think we are, Tom, but I might - you two closer to it than I am. You don’t think?

Well, I haven't observed that from afar but - : Okay. That's not leading, I'm genuinely interested in your view. You're sort of outside but inside, you know a little bit about this place, but you're watching from a distance.

So, you don't think they are at the moment? : As opposed to you two, who are inside the submarine looking at us through periscope. Something like that. No, I don't think that the Coalition is trying to do that.

I think this is an incredibly interesting time - I suppose that's the word I would use to describe Australian politics. The worse that One Nation does in terms of some of their behaviour, like calling what happened at Bondi Beach a 'false flag event' and they seem to get more popular. I don't think that that is reflecting the views of Australians.

I think that One Nation's kind of become a proxy for how angry Australians are at the moment about a whole range of issues. But I don't see this lasting, to be honest. And my advice to my fellow Liberals would be to stay the course and to continue to develop policies that focus on people's welfare, prosperity, their hopes and opportunities for the future, and not to be distracted by what's going on in One Nation.

Having said that, I think the - : Is the thing about that, is because we're two years out, that that's the biggest factor? Because polling's been really accurate on One Nation. If you look at Farrer, you look at South Australia.

But Victoria is probably the canary in the coal mine, isn't it, Jason? If we see, you know, Labor kicked out, but One Nation maybe is the bigger party in a Coalition in Victoria, would that sort of make you sit up and take notice? : Well, I am sitting up and taking notice, Tom. I'm not ignoring this.

And I do think some of the stuff that One Nation has been saying on, for example, our immigration program, has resonated with a lot of Australians. And the more people try to shut them down rather than to engage with them on that issue, the angrier Australians get. I don't think Victoria would be - you're quite right, which is there may have been an element of people trying to send a signal, both in Farrer and in South Australia, because they didn't think the result ultimately rested on their votes.

But that won't be the case in Victoria. So, that does add a dimension that may not have existed in those two previous elections. So, we'll have to watch with interest. : Okay.

There's a sense that Labor is sitting up and taking notice now, Pat. Clearly there's been a bit of a shift in Labor, hasn't there? There was a, ‘oh, well, we'll be right.

They're not coming after our vote’ - but a bit more concerned now? : Tom, if you're asking about an election that's two years away, I've always had the view that you can't take any election for granted and you earn the vote of the Australian people at every election you contest. Now, I would note, just on your earlier question about where the Liberal Party are going, which is 'are they chasing One Nation or not?' Don't take it from me, but Senator Hanson herself said, on the day that the Opposition Leader gave his Budget reply speech, Senator Hanson herself came out and said that she saw Angus Taylor stealing her policies.

Stealing her policies on migration, stealing her policies on housing. And I would have thought if Angus Taylor can't even come up with his own policies, then I understand why some people will be asking - what is the point of the Coalition? : Okay. Do you know what I really wonder, Pat?

The wine bars - is the One Nation vote showing up yet in the Perth wine bars? : Yeah, he's pretty safe in the Perth wine bars. But you asked Pat about what the Labor Party is doing. And he answered a question about something which is patently untrue.

So, Pat, is the Labor Party worrying about what's happening to your vote with One Nation? Because at the moment, there are more people leaving the Labor Party's column going to One Nation, than the Liberal Party's column and going to One Nation. : I'm not aware of any former Labor Deputy Prime Ministers, who've then gone over to One Nation, Jason? : Patrick, we're talking about voters in the community. : I'm not aware of that.

Are you aware of one? : I know Tom lets you get away with not answering his questions - : I'm aware of one that happened in the Coalition. Have you forgotten it? : I've got to pick what I follow up, Jason, because then there's you, when you're - it's like you never pivot. : No. What's pivoting? : Like you're pretending you're not a politician deep down. : I've never heard of pivoting.

What is this thing? But leaving that aside, yeah sure, we were very sad. We were very sad to see Barnaby leave us.

But, you know, Patrick, aren't you worried - : No love lost. : Aren't you worried about your voters moving from the Labor party to - : All right, I'm way over. : Jason, no one owns a voter. : No. No. But they used to be voting for you, now they're voting for One Nation. : All right.

Jason's interview with Patrick Gorman will continue in a week's time. Jason, Patrick, thank you. We'll talk again when, well, you can talk, I’ll be here next week as well. : Thank you Tom.

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