Interview with Rafael Epstein, Melbourne Mornings, ABC Radio

Subjects: culture, One Nation, opinion polls, data centres Rafael Epstein: We’re joined now by the federal government, effectively, their representative for today, Dr Daniel Mulino. He is the Assistant Treasurer in Anthony Albanese’s finance team, and Daniel’s also the MP for the western suburb seat of Fraser. Morning.

Daniel Mulino: Morning, Raf. What’s your culture? So, Raf, I was born in Italy, came out with my dad in 1970, and when I attend citizenship ceremonies in my electorate, which is frequent, for me they’re really uplifting events where I see people from all 4 corners of the world coming together, thrilled at becoming Australian citizens, and also willing to jointly commit to a whole bunch of important shared principles and values.

Can I – I’m going to dive in – jointly commit. I think what Pauline Hanson’s saying is that people aren’t jointly committed. She’s getting huge responses in polls.

Who knows what that becomes? Do you think she’s tapping into something – this idea that there aren’t a whole lot of people jointly committed? Well, my experience is that people are jointly committed and as I say, I have a lot of citizenship ceremonies in my electorate and people from very, very diverse backgrounds, and it always makes me reflect on my Dad’s journey in Australia.

He came out not speaking English all that well, without high school qualifications, like a lot of migrants at that time, worked multiple jobs, got high school equivalents at night, and then while working multiple jobs, got nursing qualifications and then worked as a nurse for 35 years. Now, mum and dad spoke Italian at home when I was young, at times. That was partly because they were trying to encourage my sister and I to learn Italian.

It didn’t work because we were a bit lazy on that front – – But the notion that, you know, my dad, who embraced Australia, loved Australia, considered himself Australian, the notion that they occasionally spoke Italian at home would mean that they’re not officially part of the monoculture is a bit ridiculous and reflecting on – Is it racist? Is monoculture a racist word?

No, I think it’s a clunky and simplistic one. And I think again, Dad continued to embrace certain aspects of Italian culture. He loved making pasta from scratch at home, making gnocchi at home.

Is that a breach of the monoculture? So, look, my concern about the way it’s framed at times is, on the surface, it’s meant to be a notion that brings people together. But the undertones of this notion of monoculture can sometimes almost be accusatory, almost implying that some people aren’t part of the monoculture.

And that’s the risk. I think. As I said, my experience is that people coming from all parts of the world, by and large the vast majority of them really positively embrace those shared values we have, our democratic institutions, a commitment to a peaceful and tolerant society.

Daniel Mulino’s part of Anthony Albanese’s finance team, also a Labor MP here in Melbourne. Daniel, I’m just going to give that one more try because I guess I’m keen to know from you what you think. Something big is happening.

I don’t know if the polls are going to translate into something, but in my lifetime there hasn’t been a third party getting 20 something in the polls. So, something’s fuelling One Nation’s rise. The thing she’s been consistent on is there’s something wrong with – we’re being swamped by Asians, we’re being swamped by Muslims – there’s something wrong with multiculturalism.

So, she said that a lot. Now all of a sudden, and people might be really offended and upset by those phrases. You can paint those things as prejudice.

I think that some of those things are very prejudiced. She’s tapping into something. What’s she tapping into?

Well, I think you’re right. There is something happening, that there is concern and grievance in the community. I don’t think it’s straightforward to pinpoint what’s the particular grievance or concern and in fact, that may not be a homogenous thing right around the country.

There are probably a few different things that she’s trying to tap into. Some of them are economic – cost of living – some of them are cultural, some relate to migration. And, well, look, what I would say is that I and the government’s priority at the minute is to deal with some of the issues that are being identified by her, but also others.

And so our priority remains cost of living and on a range of other issues that are coming up in some of the discussions, we’re trying to get good outcomes for people and I think ultimately that will win through. Are you failing to sell it? No, no.

I think on cost of living there’s been a lot of progress made, but obviously for a lot of people there are pressures that remain and that’s why we’re continuing with our agenda. We had a lot of – But sorry, I’m going to interrupt again. It’s not just about the pressures right?

You say you’re doing big things and that Budget actually is probably the biggest change since the GST, but your numbers are dropping. Doesn’t that mean you’re failing to explain what you’re trying to do? Look, I think people want governments to focus on big reforms, to make the tough decisions and then to have a disciplined and sustained effort to implement them.

That’s got to be the priority of governments, not to follow every weekly poll during the course of the entire term. So, that is our priority. I don’t ignore the polls, particularly when there are big changes like this and I try to understand what it is that people are reflecting.

But look, the priority for the government and for me in my portfolio is to actually implement big long term changes that I believe really are going to benefit our community. There’s a data centre, I’m pretty sure it’s in your electorate in West Footscray, it’s already industrial land. They want it to double in size.

Do you think it should? So I think with data centres we’re seeing both a real economic opportunity and we’re already seeing significant investment, but there are also questions of social licence and questions around what are the appropriate regulatory guardrails. So I think it’s really important that Tim Ayres and Andrew Charlton, as 2 of the key ministers in this space, have been laying down principles which include the fact that data centres need to provide their own energy and they need to pay for their own connection to electricity grids, they need to provide plans to manage water, and that there needs to be proper consultation.

I think what we need to do is to figure out – I’m going to stop you there again, forgive me. Is there proper consultation right now, and especially with the one in your seat and they want to double the size of it? Is the consultation, are they getting that right, right now?

Well look, what I’m seeing is that there are lots of jobs being created, including in my electorate. I’m listening for concerns. I’m not hearing directly a lot of concerns at this point but I’m very open to talking to the community and hearing where concerns arise.

We have pretty robust arrangements, but the government is continuing to work on and strengthen those principles. And when we look at the experience of countries overseas, including the US, there’s now a lot of local push back in a whole range of areas. So what I think’s critical is that we lay down these principles as far as ahead of these data centres being rolled out so that we can get the benefits but also make sure that community interests are respected and protected.

It’s 11 minutes to 9, I want to get back to your calls on what your culture is. Daniel Mulino’s an Assistant Treasurer, part of Anthony Albanese’s team. Just one more thing on the data centres, in fact your colleague you mentioned Andrew Charlton pointed this out, without the investment in data centres – I think I’m right – without that investment the economy would be shrinking, not growing.

Like that’s how much money is being spent on the data centres. Should we tax them more? No, look, I think what we’re seeing at the moment, as Andrew’s pointed out and you just alluded to, is that data centres in the last quarterly results constituted a very significant share of overall economic growth, and that in part reflects the economic opportunity that they represent.

I think that our taxation arrangements across different corporate sectors are broadly right at the moment. David Pocock wants more from them. Do you agree with him or not?

Look, I think what we need to do is to make sure that we focus on getting the right regulatory guardrails. That to me is the priority at the moment. To make sure that if there is significant opportunity for increased investment and appetite for that investment to come into Australia, that that is not done at the expense of our water management, not done at the expense of the stability of our grid.

That’s the priority at the moment. Thanks for coming in.