Interview with Kieran Gilbert, Sky News, Sunday Agenda

KIERAN GILBERT: Let’s go live to the Energy and Climate Change Minister, Chris Bowen. Thanks for your time, Minister. You heard the Nationals Leader before the break and he’s really making the case for abundance in energy, abundance of supply, as much as we can get from all sources.

Can you see why that would resonate with a lot of people? MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE AND ENERGY, CHRIS BOWEN: Good morning, KG, great to join you. Well, abundance is easy to say.

Of course we want abundance but Australia is the best renewable country in the world and we want to use that to create energy abundance. Mr Canavan and Mr Tehan wander around saying the words abundance but, of course, when they’re in office, four gigawatts of dispatchable energy left the grid and only one gigawatt came on. That’s not abundance, that’s the opposite.

We’ve been fixing that with a massive pipeline of investment and what we’re seeing is, of course, that’s starting to turn the corner after 10 years of denial and delay, starting to turn the corner with progress both in terms of prices, emissions, and importantly reliability because the most unreliable part of our energy system is coal. Mr Canavan would have a lot more of it if he had a choice.

And what that would see is increased unreliability, increased prices because when coal goes down, bills go up. KIERAN GILBERT: He argues that you and the Government have said for years that this is the cheapest type of energy, renewables, but yet people are still seeing their household bills go up and he’s citing a number today, the Coalition referring to this number today that says that Australians have slugged $23 billion extra in fact over the last four years since the Government promised bills had come down.

MINISTER BOWEN: Well, let me make a couple of points, Kieran. Energy bills are too high. That’s the result of a couple of things.

That’s the result of an international energy crisis, particularly around Ukraine that we had to deal with. It’s the result of 10 years of denial and delay. We have a plan to make that better.

The Coalition has a plan to make it worse. And my final point is the irony and hypocrisy of the Coalition quoting a figure like that which includes a 20 per cent price rise that Angus Taylor changed the law to hide in the most disgraceful act of an energy minister in living energy. He knew that prices were going up 20 per cent.

He didn’t want to tell the Australian people that before the 2022 election so he changed the law to hide it so it was released weeks after the election, not days before. That is particularly ironic that the Coalition would include those figures, but the more important point is that we have a plan to make it better. They have a plan to make it worse.

KIERAN GILBERT: Do- when you- looking at these numbers, do you also accept that there were problems with your modelling when it comes to the cost of transmission lines, of storage, of that broader grid question? Because to me, you look at the renewables rollout, all of that follow on, the transmission and so on, that hasn’t kept up, has it? MINISTER BOWEN: No, I don’t agree with that, Kieran.

We are making very good progress on the renewables rollout. We’ve got many, many gigawatts in the pipeline, many gigawatts have hit. I mean, we’ve turned that situation around where four gigawatts left the grid and only one gigawatt came in.

We’ve turned that around and we’re turning that around in large scale stuff, particularly solar and batteries. Wind has more challenges. I’ve said that publicly.

But particularly small scale. I mean, 460,000 households now have a Cheaper Home Battery. That’s a program the Opposition would scrap and would not only stop those Australians who are reducing their bills to nothing but also reduce that downward pressure on bills for everyone, not just the Australians who are putting in the Cheaper Home Battery.

So we are making good progress. Of course there’s always head winds and challenges. You deal with those, and economics of particular types of energy do come through in particular phases, but against all that we’re making really good progress particularly around solar.

And that is what is seeing downward pressure on prices for the first time in a long time. Long way to go, Kieran. No one’s suggesting mission accomplished.

Me, the last person to do that. There’s a lot of work necessary to keep the progress we’ve made up, particularly in the face of that 10 years of denial and delay and the Opposition continuing just to focus on fantasies. It wasn’t that long ago when Matt Canavan was not the leader, he was a backbencher, he was a bit more honest.

And he said, and I quote, nuclear won’t cut it. That wasn’t the argument he was putting to you just a few minutes ago. KIERAN GILBERT: Yeah, I’ll get to that in a moment, but on gas, particularly that very important firming energy source.

You call it a transition fuel. What sort of level of gas do we need? Have you got an understanding of how much gas we need in the system over the next 10 and 20 years?

MINISTER BOWEN: So gas is an important backup, Kieran. Often you don’t need it very often, but when you do need it, you certainly do need it. So we’ve seen gas use fall dramatically.

The last quarter’s figures saw their lowest gas use in our energy system for 26 years. That’s a good thing. That’s largely batteries replacing gas in the night.

The good thing about gas is it’s flexible. You can turn it on and off. A gas fire power station you can turn on and off.

You can’t do that with coal, you certainly can’t do that with nuclear, but you can do it with gas. And that’s why gas will remain a part of the system. The ISP says that gen cost makes that clear that it’s a useful backup for renewables.

We have a sensible approach in the middle, if you like. The Coalition would say gas is the answer to everything. The Greens would say end all gas immediately.

I have a pretty pragmatic, sensible, middle of the ground approach to see- which says gas is necessary. We’ll work with a sensible plan, an Australian plan for Australian conditions. That’s outlined in the ISP through to 2050.

Of course there’s assumptions there and the best assumptions that experts can make but they are still assumptions. But the fundamental point is that gas will play a role in the system to back up renewables. That’s before we get to heavy industry and home heating, they’re separate matters where also gas will play a role.

So pretty sensible, pragmatic approach when it comes to gas from me and the Albanese Government. KIERAN GILBERT: There’s a few other issues related and you did touch on the nuclear thing, the nuclear question. I just wonder why Labor and the Government doesn’t lift the moratorium now.

You call that a fantasy but if you look at the leaps in technology, I think in the context of AI, the demands of hyperscale data centres, the electrification of the grid which you endorse and this huge flow of demand that we’re going to see, it could well drive huge leaps in that technology. It’s zero emissions, we have the largest amount of uranium in the world.

Why not just lift the moratorium? MINISTER BOWEN: So Kieran, a couple of points, and I heard your point about leaps in technology both with me and with Matt Canavan. I’ve been around a while now as you have but maybe not this long.

It was 40 years ago in effect that the then shadow minister for the environment, Peter McGauran, sent a message to all of his colleagues saying, listen, I want to tell you about this great new ​technology that’s about to happen called small module reactors. And here we are 40 years later and it hasn’t happened. And there’s been no small module reactor built anywhere in the Western world.

KIERAN GILBERT: But it could. MINISTER BOWEN: It’s always about to happen, Kieran. It’s always just about to happen.

It’s been about to happen for 40 years. It’s just- it’s the next big thing and it always has been and in my view, it always will be. Now, we’ve got to focus on the things that work in Australia, not distractions.

Not distractions from our progress which nuclear is a massive distraction. People who promote nuclear like Matt are just trying to distract from the progress that we’re making on renewables. They’re trying to slow that.

Matt’s probably more honest than most when he says, yeah, I want to slow renewables. He doesn’t really like them, doesn’t support them, so he came up with this nuclear distraction. Now, nuclear is not an answer for Australia any time when we have such cheap and abundant renewables we can harness with the right policy approaches.

Nuclear is the slowest form of energy to build, the most expensive. Now, I would rather go with a fastest form of energy to build and the cheapest. That’s a difference, that’s a debate.

There was a debate at the last election, you remember, the Coalition had a nuclear plan. KIERAN GILBERT: MINISTER BOWEN: Angus Taylor again was a bit more honest then when he was shadow treasurer and he said, yeah, I know. Nuclear can’t be built in Australia without massive Government subsidies.

They said that then, they admitted it. The Australian people had a pretty strong view about it just over a year ago. If they want to have that debate again at the next election, I’m very happy to have it.

KIERAN GILBERT: Yeah, I understand your point at the moment but with AI and all of the associated benefits, risks involved but there are benefits too. MINISTER BOWEN: Yeah, well, look, let’s have a quick chat about- let’s- sure. But let’s have a quick chat about AI and data centres if you like, Kieran.

Yeah, Australia’s a very hot market for data centres, a lot of the investment coming in. That shows- and this investment's coming in knowing Australia's energy policies and knowing our situation. They know.

They don't make these multi-billion dollar investments lightly. They look at Australia's Government's position. KIERAN GILBERT: MINISTER BOWEN: They say, yep, we want to do business in Australia.

We're saying, great, come on in, but there's going to be rules. We want this to work for Australians, not just for you, not just for the big data centre companies. We want your investment, but we're going to have a set of rules in place for you.

I've said what those will be in terms of energy. You've got to bring on your own additional renewable energy and storage. I'll have more to say about that in the next few weeks.

We're making good progress about that. But again, my fundamental point is there's a couple of key markets for data centres in the world. Australia is one of them.

And they're coming here knowing the Albanese Government's approach to renewable energy and saying, yes, we like that. We can work with that. That's great for us.

KIERAN GILBERT: But I guess the question is it great for us? Because you've got the EV demand and anyone in a major city, certainly. I'm not sure how much broader than that it is.

I will be travelling over the next week into the regions, which I'm looking forward to, see just the take-up of EVs has grown dramatically. But then this again puts more demand on the underlying system. And you need the supply, the energy supply, to provide the electricity to those vehicles.

So you've got to keep up with all of that as well. MINISTER BOWEN: Sure. Absolutely, and we are.

And EVs, you're right. I mean, we're now seeing 36 per cent of sales, battery electric and plug-in hybrid. That's up from under 2 per cent when we came to office.

When we came to office, an EV was being bought once every 50 minutes. Now it's every one minute and 17 seconds. Now, yes, of course, we factor all that in.

Also, there's great flexibility going forward. We're working on vehicle-to-grid charging, putting consumers in charge. If you're at home, Kieran, with your EV, once our system's up and running, you'll be able to decide, am I going to charge my car or am I going to use my car to charge my house?

Because I charged in the middle of the day for nothing and now I want to charge in the night with vehicle-to-grid charging. That's massively popular. People are taking that up in great numbers.

It's early days. We've got a lot of work to do to get all the settings right, but it's early days. But all this is part of our planning.

My point is that all this is happening. This has been- what we're going through around the world is called the era of electrification and Australia is right at the forefront of that. I get many ministers from overseas asking us about how we're doing so well on home batteries and how we're making such good progress.

And I talk to them about our policies, but point out we've also got a long, long way to go. We've got to keep our very focused approach on this transition. We're not going to be distracted by the denial and the delay of Matt and his mates in the Coalition of chaos, the three right-wing parties who would just have us hop off the world's progress, stop, go back to the old days, and are full of nonsense.

I mean, talking about digging and drilling. Remember the Queensland Government a few months ago said- KIERAN GILBERT: The President of the United States says some things- MINISTER BOWEN: Well, you remember the Queensland Government Premier Crisafulli, holding that big press conference saying, we’re going to drill and dig and we want the Federal Government to fast-track this application?

We still haven't received the application. You can't fast-track an application you haven't received. My point is, this is just rhetoric from the Coalition.

KIERAN GILBERT: And- but there is- you talk about the electrification push internationally. The United States is a pretty big outlier, though. In terms of Donald Trump and his position, drill, baby, drill is his message.

MINISTER BOWEN: Well, look, Donald Trump- President Trump has his particular approach. We have a different approach. We govern for Australians.

We govern in the best interest of Australians. No other country. We have a patriotic approach which takes the best resources of our country and harnesses them.

President Trump can engage in the policies for his nation. We respect that. We will not be engaging in the policies of Donald Trump or any other country will be engaging in the best policies for Australians and that entails, in my portfolio, harnessing the massive renewable opportunities across our country, storing them in garages and driveways and in large batteries in which we are absolutely leading the world.

We can take some patriotic pride. No country is storing renewable energy like we are. I'm proud of that as a country.

Australians every day. Almost 2000 Australians most weekdays are putting in a Cheaper Home Battery and getting on with it, and that work will continue. KIERAN GILBERT: And on fuel, just quickly, we've got two things I want to get to before we go.

But on fuel, when will you be comfortable that the supplies are enough, that our sovereign capacity is strong enough to get through the ongoing uncertainty in the Middle East? MINISTER BOWEN: Well, I'm very pleased with how we're going. It wasn't that long ago, Kieran, people on your show and elsewhere were saying we're going to have rationing, it's inevitable.

Barnaby Joyce called for rationing, demanded, wanted to know why I wasn't rationing. Dan Tehan basically said it was inevitable that we'd have rationing, and here we are. They said that it was going to happen after Easter.

Well, it's well after Easter now, and we have more fuel in Australia today than we had on the day Iran was bombed. KIERAN GILBERT: MINISTER BOWEN: That's a serious government, a calm government just doing its job. Anthony Albanese talking to his colleagues, me working with industry, getting on with the job.

We had 91 ships arrive in Australia over June, which is higher than average. That's because we've been doing our job, getting on with it. Now, I've always said there's challenges and the sooner the Strait of Hormuz is fully open the better.

So it remains a key focus for me. I hold my press conference every Saturday, like I did yesterday, giving Australians those updates. And that work on ensuring the fuel security of Australia will continue in the face of that international challenge.

KIERAN GILBERT: MINISTER BOWEN: But that's a serious government, a calm government, doing our job, while others lost their head. Mr Tehan was running around saying it's all a crisis and there's no plan. We have a plan and we're implementing that plan.

KIERAN GILBERT: I've only got 20 seconds, but One Nation Senator Sean Bell will be with me in a moment. Is there a challenge to you in the west, in southwest of Sydney among many Australians who want a greater assimilation of cultures? What’s your read on this?

You’ve only got as I say 20 or 30 seconds if you can us your thoughts as a Western Sydney MP. MINISTER BOWEN: KG, you grew up in western- I’ll be quick, KG. You grew up in Western Sydney as I did.

You know that this is one of the great multicultural success stories of the world. We say to people give us your best. People from all around the world, whether it be Lebanon or Vietnam come here and work their guts out in small businesses every day, and then they go to temples, they go to churches, they go to mosques and we respect that.

That is multiculturalism. And we say in return we respect your culture and your heritage, our values of tolerance, of respect, of freedom, of democracy are what we have in return. And they love that, they embrace that.

Many people from Vietnam and Lebanon and China and other countries, Iraq and Afghanistan have come here to embrace that lifestyle. I love multiculturalism. I will defend it loudly and proudly.

Here in Fairfield we love multiculturalism, in Guildford, in Saint Clair, in Erskine Park. And if others want to argue for something else, they don’t know how multiculturalism works. Australia is the best multicultural country in the world bar none and Western Sydney, we live that and breathe that every day and I’m very proud of it.

KIERAN GILBERT: Chris Bowen, thank you for joining us. We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture. We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.