Television interview: NITV The Point
Subjects: Remote Jobs and Economic Development Program delivering the dignity of work, Low-Cost Essentials Subsidy Scheme delivering cost of living relief, Accountability, Misinformation and Disinformation, Parliamentary Inquiry into racism, hatred and violence directed at Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, Northern Territory Remote Aboriginal Investment, Closing the Gap JOHN PAUL JANKE, HOST: Minister, thanks so much for joining us on The Point.
MALARNDIRRI McCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS: Good to join you, JP. We’re talking about Indigenous expenditure. But let's go back a couple of steps.
What's the government's focus in terms of direct spending to Indigenous Australians? What are your key priorities? And how do you determine those priorities?
MINISTER MCCARTHY: Our direct focus is jobs, jobs, jobs. We know that if we can lift people out of property through having really good, decent jobs with dignity, it will, by extension, support themselves, individuals and their families, and their circumstances. I think that's a critical thing.
The other area is food security. We know that you have to have healthy food in order to live healthier lives. And the cost of living that we invest in, especially in our remote stores, 120 stores across four jurisdictions, to roll out food that is much cheaper, at 50% of the price that it could be.
Because I've said to the stores and I've said to our communities after listening to them, they want cheaper food, just like you get in Woolies and Coles in your main centres and towns, and these have been my focus. And they were some of the initiatives announced to the recent budget. You allocated money for job creation, food security in remote areas, and also for family safety.
How do you determine those priorities? MINISTER MCCARTHY: Well, we do that by grants. We give the opportunity for organisations and individuals to apply for grant funding.
These are grant rounds that come out. In particular, with the remote jobs, we've just had our third round of grants. We're going to see the 3,000 job mark this year in July.
We've been given an extension by the Prime Minister in the Closing the Gap announcement this year of an extra 3,000. So, once we hit the 3,000, we will then keep pushing to get the 6,000. I think the total investment from the Albanese Government this year was about $1.2 billion, mostly on remote jobs, as you say, extending that from 3,000 to 6,000.
We constantly hear that there’s a lot of money in Indigenous affairs. That it's a black industry. You’ve got the Coalition and One Nation talking about this black industry, where we spend anywhere from 30 billion to 40 billion up even to 53 billion dollars spent on Indigenous Australians.
Do you get frustrated that there’s this call for audits all the time, that they’re saying, we need to know where that money goes, we need to know what the outcomes are. We need to have audit. Do you get frustrated by the constant calls for audits when it comes to black money?
MINISTER MCCARTHY: Well, can I just say to your viewers, JP, that First Nations people in this country have every right to be supported and included in government funding. And I think it's really important to put that on the table. This is not about an exclusiveness just for First Nations people.
Our Commonwealth budget covers all Australians. It is important that the most impoverished area, which happens to be with First Nations people in some of the remotest areas, and sometimes not so much remote, even in our urban areas, where we see incredible homelessness, which happens to be First Nations people, well of course we need and we deserve to see committed funding.
Often, I hear that there's not enough money that's going into assist organisations. And so, my opponents, who want to criticise that there's too much money, then often say, well, there's not enough money. And you've got to work out a lot of that is the politics.
My reality is that it's about listening to the needs of the families, the individuals and organisations out there, and I have to stay focused on that. Do you get frustrated that the Coalition is calling for an audit of Indigenous expenditure? But they were in government previously, and there were no calls for an audit of Indigenous expenditure when they were in government.
MINISTER MCCARTHY: Well, the Coalition has no plan for First Nations people. They call for audits, when if they did their homework, they would see that we have continuous audits. Commonwealth monies have to be audited.
They have to be accounted for. We have Senate estimates processes, so that there can be that scrutiny. That's what the estimates process is about.
In the last 10 years alone, we've had 50 evaluations of the Indigenous Advancement funding. That's an incredible amount of evaluations, and it's all gone through. We’ve had changes through that.
In the previous iteration of the Coalition government, they had the Community Development Program, which was an absolute failure. And as part of that evaluation, it was identified there was a failure. It was discriminatory.
It penalised people. It didn't encourage people to get up and go out and work. So, we've now looked at that evaluation, and now rolling out the remote jobs program, because we want to incentivise, we want to encourage, and we want to lift our people to have hope, and to have a future, and to lift themselves out of poverty.
Minister, one of the criticisms, and I've seen this in Senate estimates, is of the NIAA, the National Indigenous Australians Agency, and that was set up by a Coalition Government. But there seems to be a lot of criticism on the level of funding that it gives to Indigenous communities through its various grants. I think it’s somewhere in the vicinity of $8 billion over the last few years.
So, there’s quite a bit of criticism. You said that there's audits, somewhere like 50 audits and evaluations of the Indigenous Advancement Strategy. My question is, how do you get that out to the wider community?
That there is this process of audit and evaluation. Because what comes across is, particularly by the Coalition and One Nation, is that money is just handed out to black organisations. We don't know where it goes, we don't know what the outcome, we don't know whether there's actually any benefit to Aboriginal communities.
How do you respond to those things? MINISTER MCCARTHY: Well, we need to show the examples. And the examples that I've often talked about is the places where I’ve visited, where the jobs program is working, and we need to communicate that even better.
So, that not only that community can see and hear it, but so can the rest of the country and feel a part of it. Communication is essential. But one of the things that is really challenging in this day and age is the misinformation and the disinformation online and other areas.
We are constantly conscious that we have to keep fighting to get information out there and accurate information. And it’s often not easy. I mean, in politics, you see politicians say all sorts of things, especially those who are not in government, because they don't have to be responsible, really, for what they're saying.
But in the position that I have, everything I do, I have to be accountable for and responsible for. And so, I'm very conscious that we've got to spend wisely but we have to spend in the right places. Are you disappointed that that level of misinformation gets traction, particularly, during the referendum campaign and post referendum?
That that level of misinformation when it comes to Indigenous expenditure has got a lot of traction. We see it online a lot of course. You are currently holding an inquiry into racism and hate directed at First Nations people.
A lot of the comments on NITV’s social media pages is about the level of spending.‘Why do you need this because we already give you $30 billion in funding?’ Does it disappoint you that that misinformation has gained traction? MINISTER MCCARTHY: Misinformation and disinformation really can be deeply troubling, especially when it can lead to violence. We've seen the Camp Sovereignty in Melbourne last year.
We've seen at Boorloo, Perth, with the attempted bombing. This is why I called for the inquiry into racism and hatred against First Nations people. And this is why I am forever calling in the Senate, for all politicians, to be really careful about the language we use, the way we push a case.
I understand completely that my opponents have to always be finding a way to challenge me, to test me, or the government as a whole. I completely understand that that's the democracy. But we have to also be responsible for their real intent of what we're trying to do.
And sometimes, I do find in this place, that people are completely irresponsible on that. Of course, Pauline Hanson’s One Nation party has said that one of its key policies is to abolish policies based on race, to abolish spending based on race. To bring Indigenous expenditure back into mainstream departments.
She suggested it’s going to save $12 billion a year. What's your response in terms of that One Nation policy? Should we end policies or expenditure that’s based on race?
MINISTER MCCARTHY: Well, we've seen where One Nation comes from, especially around immigration and refugees, and then you get an absolutely incredible outcome, like the Socceroos, to show just how amazing is that team, modern Australia, that you've got people from around the world who call Australia home. That is modern Australia. So, I completely reject the notion of where One Nation comes from in regards to the First Nations people.
I have not seen a decent policy from anyone opposite, in terms of First Nations people. I encourage them always to be at the table with me. I hold meetings with them in parliament every time we sit, around Closing the Gap, and offer opportunities to engage, to genuinely engage, and that includes One Nation.
And I've not heard of any particular proposals that have come forward, that see a real plan for First Nations people, that doesn't make First Nations people feel like they're being punched down on. The Coalition and One Nation criticisms of Indigenous expenditure is actually about, they’re saying that we need to hold people more accountable for the money that we give to them to provide services to First Nations communities and people.
And we’ve spoken to a few community organisations and they’ve said look, we’d love to see more accountability as well, particularly non-Indigenous organisations who get money. How do you get that accountability? How to you make state and territory governments accountable for example, for the investment that they get from the federal government?
MINISTER MCCARTHY: Well, through the Closing the Gap Agreement, I have said that it's important to put our states and territories on notice, in regards to the targets and making sure that they are trying to reach the targets. And in one of those ways, we could look at is the FFAs, the federal funding agreements. I've already begun that through the Northern Territory Government’s funding with the Commonwealth, and that's through the Northern Territory Remote Aboriginal Investment.
And in that agreement, I have specifically attached it to the Closing the Gap targets that need to be met in order for particular funding to be handed over. And that's the first in this country. It's the first time, that in this federal funding agreement, I've had Aboriginal organisations at the table who have also determined, with the Northern Territory Government and the Commonwealth, how they want that over $800 million spent in the Northern Territory.
Now, that Agreement has just been signed. It will be a test to see how we go. But that is the strength of having genuine partnership with First Nations people at the table.
Is it hard to get all key stakeholders at the table? MINISTER MCCARTHY: Always. Absolutely.
How do you go about getting people around the table? MINISTER MCCARTHY: Sure. This is where the agreement between the Coalition of Peaks and the Commonwealth really matters.
And it's about genuine engagement. So, because we have Donella Mills, as the Convenor of the Coalition of Peaks, Donella Mills will work with the state and territory Coalition of Peaks, and we expect them to be at the table with the Commonwealth when we're meeting with those jurisdictions. And it's been working.
And we rely on the Coalition of Peaks to determine themselves who should be at the table with us. Marion Scrymgour, who’s the Special Envoy for Remote Communities, has called on the Commonwealth to take stronger leadership in scrutinising organisations which receive government funding. She wants the Productivity Commission to audit how the Northern Territory Government and NGOs provide services to Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory.
Is this something that you support? MINISTER MCCARTHY: I fully understand where Marion Scrymgour is coming from with her concerns around the Northern Territory Government and the spending of money for First Nations people. That is why we designed the Northern Territory Remote Aboriginal Investment to incorporate Aboriginal people at the table, so that there was an attachment to the Closing the Gap Agreement.
In the next couple of years, we will see how that rolls out. But the Northern Territory Government, through that agreement, has to meet certain requirements if it’s to receive the funding that it hopes to receive. I remember many years ago at Garma when you were first appointed to the role, we were able to sit down and have a chat in the red dirt.
You said one of your initiatives was to get a bipartisan level of support when it came to Closing the Gap. A couple of years on now, where are we with bipartisanship when it comes to helping close the gap. Is it still a pipe dream?
Have you been able to chip away at getting bipartisan support in moving forward? MINISTER MCCARTHY: Thanks, JP. I open the door every sittings and invite the members opposite, both in the Senate and in the house, to sit with me on the Closing the Gap Agreement, but also to be able to ask questions or scrutinise me.
It's a roundtable room and all senators and members are invited to it and their staff. So, I keep that policy, it's very much one that I believe in. Sometimes I get a lot of people attending, sometimes I only get a few, but I don't think it can ever be said that I'm not available.
Minister, thanks for joining us on The Point. MINISTER MCCARTHY: Subscribe and stay up to date Connect with us PM&C acknowledges the traditional owners and custodians of country throughout Australia and acknowledges their continuing connection to land, water and community. We pay our respects to the people, the cultures and the elders past, present and emerging.