Interview with Natalie Barr - Sunrise, Channel Seven

NATALIE BARR, HOST: New questions are being asked this morning over whether or not China had been tipped off to Prime Minister Anthony Albanese's trip to Fiji, where our two countries signed a historic defence pact this week. Hours after that was signed, of course, Beijing tested that nuclear-capable missile right on Australia's doorstep. Former Home Affairs Secretary Mike Pezzullo says the timing was a pretty big coincidence and our counterintelligence protocols should be checked.

For their take, let's bring in Amanda Rishworth, Employment Minister, and James Patterson, Shadow Defence Minister. Good morning to both of you. Amanda, is the government concerned that our intelligence protocols could be compromised?

AMANDA RISHWORTH, MINISTER FOR EMPLOYMENT AND WORKPLACE RELATIONS: Firstly, I would say, the timing for China for this testing is entirely a questions for them. But we have put our concerns very clearly to Beijing, and to really emphasise that this type of action destabilises our region. And we are calling for both transparency and reassurance when it comes to China’s actions and this sort of missile test in the Pacific.

NATALIE BARR: I think what most people would be saying is that the timing of that test is not just questions for them, it's questions for us. And Mike Pezzullo, the former boss of Home Affairs, is basically saying they’re spying on us. Did they know?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I can't answer what China is doing. But what I can say is this treaty or this agreement with Fiji is a very significant one. It's a very significant one and one that we should all be very proud of.

And it highlights the really important work that Australia has been doing in the Pacific, whether that is with Papua New Guinea, whether that's with Fiji, whether that's with Vanuatu. Of course, work continues with the Solomons. This is all really important work that we're doing.

In terms of China, we have raised our concerns very directly and we will continue to be calling for both transparency and reassurance, because that is not what a significant power does –take actions to destabilise the region. NATALIE BARR: Yeah, we've heard the government raise concerns about it and it would be concerning for most Australians, I guess. James, as Shadow Defence Minister, what are your thoughts?

JAMES PATTERSON, SHADOW DEFENCE MINISTER: Well, China certainly is spying on us and they have a rapacious appetite for intelligence about our relationship with the Pacific because one of China's strategic objectives is to establish a military base in the Pacific, ideally a naval base. And one of the most important national security priorities of Australia is to stop them, and that's why the opposition provides our unqualified bipartisan support for the government's attempts to strengthen our relationships with the Pacific.

I think, though, it still is more likely that it was a coincidence that the missile launch occurred during the Prime Minister’s visit, because these take weeks, if not months, to plan. But it is much more in the context of China trying to send a strong message to the Pacific that they have these capabilities and that people should think twice about cooperating with countries like Australia or others.

NATALIE BARR: Okay, but James, would they have sort of planned it months ahead and then seen that it was there and thought, okay, we'll do it today? JAMES PATERSON: Look, that's possible, but I think more likely they were always planning on doing it on this date for other reasons. I think their choice of location is very interesting, though.

They fired it deep into the South West Pacific, a very capable missile that can carry a nuclear warhead. That is a very clear message that they are tending to send. They want to intimidate us, and it's critically important we demonstrate that we can't be intimidated.

NATALIE BARR: How alarmed should we be when we saw how far that could go? JAMES PATTERSON: I'm very concerned about the lack of Australia's integrated air and missile defence. We don't have sufficient capabilities to intercept missiles like this if they were launched towards Australia.

We are not investing fast enough or moving quick enough to have those capabilities. And so I think this is another reminder, like the war in Ukraine and the war in Iran, that we need to really step up and spend more on defence, including on capabilities to protect us from missiles and drones. NATALIE BARR: Yeah.

Well obviously we are spending more but there’s a discrepancy on what both of you think we should spend. Moving on, in the middle of a housing crisis, it's been revealed overseas tradies are considered no more important than actors, dancers, even animal trainers under the skilled migration scheme. All of these occupations sit in the same priority tier.

Amanda, should builders be moved up a tier and given higher priority? So all the tradies seem to be on tier three; the first tier, nurses, health professionals, the second tier teachers, and then the tradies. Do you agree with that?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: We get our advice around the professional lists from experts, but I would say that I do agree that we do need to see more skilled tradies in our country. And that's exactly what our government's been doing. We've had a three times increase in the number of construction workers since we've come to government taking up those jobs.

But importantly, we’re also fast-tracking the recognition of those skills so not only can those construction workers come here, but they can actually work on construction sites. So we've got an extra 20,000 people that have had their skills approved because of that fast-tracking. So we are taking the issue of getting more construction workers here.

They are a priority for the government and that's why you've seen an increase three times the amount come to our country since our government was elected. NATALIE BARR: Yeah, look, you're right it's increased, but would you say that tradies should be on the same level as say animal handlers, animal trainers and economists? Because every time I talk to one of your government ministers, they don't seem too keen on having more economists in the country.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well look, that is a matter for the process that gets underway and recommendations to the government. But what I can say is we do want- NATALIE BARR: [Interrupts] But what would you say do you want just as many economists coming in as tradies? AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, I want to see more tradies.

I want to see more doctors. I want to see more nurses, people that we need. And of course, what we've had is the opposition play a very sneaky game of talking down our skilled migration, telling us that skilled migration isn't important, not being clear of who they cut, who would be able to come here, et cetera, and how they would do that.

They’ve got a lot of questions to answer. But we want to see more construction workers here, that’s why we’re fast tracking them. NATALIE BARR: Yeah, but we've got the figures in front of us now.

So would you say that animal trainers, economists, actors and dancers should be the same as electricians, plumbers, tilers, cabinetmakers? Do you think that's a good idea? AMANDA RISHWORTH: What I would say is when it comes to making sure we've got more construction workers in the country, I absolutely support that.

And I also want to see those skills recognised because we've got to make sure those skills are recognised so they can get to work quickly, and that work is being underway. And in fact, we've fast tracked it, as I've already said. NATALIE BARR: Ok, James, have we got a problem here or are you happy with how that's being played out?

JAMES PATERSON: Look, I mean, no disrespect to economists or animal trainers or actors, but only a Labor government, which is beholden to corrupt unions like the CFMEU would think in the middle of our worst ever housing crisis that they are equally important to bring to Australia right now. We have an unprecedented housing crisis. We’re not building enough homes.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: [Talks over] That is absolutely not the case. JAMES PATERSON: And Labor thinks that we should bring in as many economists and actors, as we should bring in sparkies and carpenters and plumbers and other critical trades. AMANDA RISHWORTH: That is not accurate and that is not correct.

JAMES PATERSON: They're beholden to the CFMEU, they're beholden to the ETU and that's why they set migration policy which discourages construction workers from coming to Australia which refuses to prioritise them, and thinks we need as many economists as [indistinct]. NATALIE BARR: Is this what's happening Amanda? Are the unions putting the heavy on you Amanda so that you don't bring enough tradies into the country?

AMANDA RISHWORTH: Absolutely not. NATALIE BARR: Well, why are you bringing in just as many economists? AMANDA RISHWORTH: That is not correct.

NATALIE BARR: Is that not right? They're on the third tier with the tradies. AMANDA RISHWORTH: When we are talking about making sure that construction workers come to this country, as I said, three times more than the previous government.

But not only that, we need to make sure their skills are recognised and we have fast-tracked construction workers as a result… NATALIE BARR: So why don't you drop the others down a tier? Would that work? AMANDA RISHWORTH: Well, quite frankly, we get expert recommendations.

We get professional recommendations [indistinct] which hasn't changed since the previous government was in government… NATALIE BARR: [Talks over] Why not? We've got a housing crisis now. So why hasn't it changed in four years?

Should it change? Are you saying that we haven't looked at this in four years? You just said it hadn't changed.

AMANDA RISHWORTH: No, what I've said is we end up getting recommendations and we continue the way it's done, continue to be the way we get recommendations. But of course, we have accelerated our construction workers, and we've got three times as many. NATALIE BARR: Okay, thank you very much.

We'll see you next week.