Interview on ABC Perth with Oliver Peterson

Website search Interviewer Oliver Peterson Interview discusses Upcoming BHP strike in Port Hedland, approval of the Alcoa Wagerup Gallium project, and Secret Harbour by-election. OLIVER PETERSON: Indeed, it is time to go Behind Party Lines, and going head-to-head today, in the red corner is the Federal Minister for Resources. Joining me in the studio is Madeleine King.

It's lovely to see you. MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, great to see you, Oly, and thanks for having me in the studio. It's great to be here.

OLIVER PETERSON: It's fabulous to have you here. And on the line joining us is the Liberal MP for Durack, Melissa Price. Good to have you on the program.

MELISSA PRICE: Thanks, Oly. Thanks for allowing me to join with you today. OLIVER PETERSON: Well, we appreciate your time, that's for sure.

And let's start first and foremost with that planned strike action, obviously tomorrow in Port Hedland. Resources Minister Madeleine King, what's the very latest? MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, we've – everyone's read the reports, I suppose.

You know, I really hope that there may be a last-minute negotiation between all parties to this. That is what we have called for all along. Having said that, the workforce have limited recourse in what they are able to do.

They don’t have the same power, if you like, as the likes of BHP. So, if it comes to the withdrawal of labour, then that's what they're entitled to do. And indeed, they've followed all the procedures through the Fair Work Commission.

And that is worth noting. I've said consistently, people that work on the mines, whether it be these, you know, onshore iron ore mines, but the whole resources sector, they deserve every cent of what they earn. But nonetheless, I do hope it doesn't come to the strike action, but I guess – OLIVER PETERSON: So, you're still holding out hope it won't go ahead?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, I guess no one likes this kind of disruption. The workers don't either. And I think there's a misconception, and sometimes some information's put around that somehow people embrace stop work.

They're doing it because they feel, and indeed they are, sort of at the last straw of bargaining for their rights and for better conditions. So, you know, we support the right of workers to bargain for better conditions. And that’s as important in the Pilbara as it is right around the country, where, you know, enterprise bargaining and bargaining with workers and companies is prevalent and welcome.

OLIVER PETERSON: Melissa Price? MELISSA PRICE: Mm. Well, we can all have our fingers crossed and our toes crossed, Oly, that it doesn't go ahead tomorrow, but let's hope it doesn't happen.

Let's hope it's not too late to stop it. But, you know, who's controlling the unions? You'd think that we've got, you know, very impressive Madeleine King, who's the Federal Minister for Mining and Petroleum, or Mining and Resources.

You’d think that she would have some influence. What about our Premier, Roger Cook? They seem to have a lot of influence over unions when it suits them.

So, you know, I think Labor really could have done a lot more here. And you know, Madeleine knows I'm a straight shooter. She's a mate of mine, by the way, Oly.

But I really think that, you know, there could have been a lot more done by Roger Cook and indeed by Ms King. MINISTER MADELEINE KING: But I guess on the other side of that, Melissa – and it's true, Melissa and I get on very well, not least of all because of our shared passion for the Fremantle Football Club. Had to mention that.

But I would say – MELISSA PRICE: All things Fremantle. MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What about the other side of this equation, is the employer?

So, the, you know, I've seen the press, and I know Melissa's just said it, and the Opposition Leader here in WA said it earlier today, you know, for the government to put pressure on the unions. But then, if the Liberal Party is so tight with the resources sector, why don't they put pressure on BHP to do the right thing? It always seems to be one-sided on who should stop who.

But there's two parties in this, like there's the workforce and there's the employer. So, it can't all be shifted to the workers. And without these workers and the work they do – the time they spend away from family and friends and the travel they do, and those that live locally that are a very important part of the community in Port Hedland – without them, there is no Pilbara powerhouse.

So, I think we all got to remember that. OLIVER PETERSON: 1300 22 1025. Melissa Price?

MELISSA PRICE: Well, of course, we want our workers to be paid what they're worth. And what I found quite quirky about this whole debate is that it suited our Labor colleagues to be talking about people being FIFO going into the Pilbara when it turns out that, in fact, 80 per cent of the people who are actually talking about live in the town of Port Hedland. So, these are people that have made a home for themselves in Port Hedland.

And you know, of course, I want them to be paid what they're owed. But I think this is just the thin edge of the wedge, Oly. We don't want to go back to those, the dark days of 1970s, the 1980s, when we had those wildcat strikes in the Pilbara.

Look, I just encourage everybody, I encourage BHP, and I encourage the unions to try harder because this is not a good outcome for this community. It will destabilise it. This is just the first, and I fear that this is the first of many.

So, it'll destabilise the community, and it is a very well-functioning, good community. I love that community. Hasn't always had the best council, but it's got a new council now.

And they deserve better. So, I just encourage the unions and BHP to come together because we really don't want to see this strike go ahead. It's not good for the town of Port Hedland.

OLIVER PETERSON: 1300 22 1025. This is Behind Party Lines. It's our federal political panel.

We've got Melissa Price joining us, the Liberal MP for Durack, and Madeleine King, the Federal Minister for Resources. You can weigh into this discussion or ask the questions yourself. 1300 22 1025. Minister King, the CME's CEO, Aaron Morey, says that this action could set a dangerous precedent across the industry, and he believes it could lead to international investors walking away.

Do you agree? MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I think it's a bit of a long bow. And you know, Aaron does great work, and the Chamber of Minerals and Energy does great work advocating for the industry, and we work together on policy issues all the time.

So, I do respect their role in this debate and in others. I think – and we keep seeing this again, this idea that somehow this harks back to the 70s or the 80s. Well, no one wants that.

The workers certainly don't want it, because at that time the safety record of these mines was appalling. The swings and the conditions that workers had to go through, whether it be in construction or otherwise, were, what I've heard is, you know, like six weeks on, two weeks off. So, no one wants to go back to that, whether it be the workforce or the employers.

And the workplace, the workforce, the companies themselves have all changed, and that's to be recognised, I think. And I don't think it sets a precedent. There's always been – and this is, you know, a workplace relations scheme that is introduced by the Howard government.

Indeed, we've improved it to make sure there's extra points of de-escalation. Workers, this is the last point they have in the bargaining process of withdrawing their labour. And if that's what they feel they need to do, then I think, you know, we need to respect that.

But equally, both parties need to negotiate in good faith. I believe that is happening, and I'm hoping they're not too far away. So, you know, maybe BHP needs to take the extra step here.

OLIVER PETERSON: Alright. Internationally, the precedent, Melissa, are you worried about what that might set? MELISSA PRICE: Well, I think CME's right to call this out.

You know, what we've seen is this town, the town of Port Hedland, has been very, you know, it's harmonious. And what we're seeing is that this could potentially lead to a bad reputation for us internationally. That is the last thing we need at the moment.

OLIVER PETERSON: 1300 22 1025. We go Behind Party Lines with Melissa Price and Madeleine King today. The WA gallium project has just been given final investment go-ahead.

It's going to produce 10 per cent of the world's gallium. You in support of this, Minister King? MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I am 100 per cent, 1000 per cent in support of this.

The Alcoa Wagerup Gallium project is a really important step. This has been raised at the highest levels of government around the world. People might have heard it came up in discussions when I was with the Prime Minister alongside the US President and others of the US Cabinet in the White House last year.

And the reason is, is because gallium's been banned for export out of China, and so now other countries have to make it. And Australia is stepping up to take on the responsibility to make it. It's part of the byproduct of bauxite, which obviously we have a fair bit of here.

So, working with partners in Japan and also the US, as well as Alcoa and the workforce here in WA, we are going to set up a new gallium industry. It's remarkable. OLIVER PETERSON: And what does that help in Australia's trading relationship?

What's the exchange here, Minister? MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, we produce a product that everyone needs because they can't get it reliably from where they used to get it from. So, we are now an important cog in that – and we always have been.

But this is just one more of those elephants – elephants, sorry. Elements – OLIVER PETERSON: What’s on your mind? MINISTER MADELEINE KING: – in the critical minerals space that we know is, you know, subject to disruption in the supply chain – OLIVER PETERSON: MINISTER MADELEINE KING: – and Australia can supply, and indeed we are.

So, this final investment decision today by Alcoa and their partners is really important in cementing Australia, but also Western Australia's role as a part of that very important supply chain for the region and for the world. OLIVER PETERSON: Melissa Price? MELISSA PRICE: Yeah, well, anything that puts West Australia back on the world stage, Oly, is a really good thing.

So, yeah, I support that. Good move by Alcoa and their gallium project. Yep, support it 100 per cent.

OLIVER PETERSON: So, how is gallium mined, Minister? MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, gallium is a byproduct from bauxite. Which is a – OLIVER PETERSON: Yes.

Will it be stripped? MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, it's processed. OLIVER PETERSON: MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Look, I'm not going to pretend to know all the processes.

But – OLIVER PETERSON: MINISTER MADELEINE KING: The Wagerup refinery is an alumina refinery where they use the bauxite, and some of that bauxite can go into the add-on facility, which this will be, to the existing Wagerup refinery to produce gallium, which is vital for technology but also defence purposes, some very advanced electronics. So, it is vital to not only our everyday needs but also our national security needs.

OLIVER PETERSON: And at the moment when we're in the midst still of a lot of uncertainty when it comes to fuel, these are sorts of conversations and negotiations you may be able to have, and/or the Minister for Trade and obviously the Prime Minister may be able to have in terms of shoring up our fuel supplies over the coming months, should there be a shortage?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, everything we do to add to the security of supply of these vital elements increases Australia's relevance in these supply discussions around fuel, among other things. So, whether that be the export of gas into the region for their energy and fuel security, that's one thing. Things like gallium are just another thing and a really important thing.

It makes Western Australia, in particular, just geostrategically hyper-relevant to the local, to the region. And that means when we are having discussions about fuel, potential fuel shortages – we've seen the Strait of Hormuz has changed again, what's going on around that – this is just another feather in Australia's amazing cap to be able to secure that fuel.

OLIVER PETERSON: Is that something that is a major discussion, Melissa Price, particularly for your constituents there in Durack, around fuel security, once again not being as sure as it was even five days ago? MELISSA PRICE: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you talk about the miners and the farmers in the electorate of Durack, going back a couple of months ago when we had the issues with the Straits of Hormuz being closed, I mean, there was, you know, incredible concern about putting in the harvest.

You know, we've got to get the harvest off, of course, so people will be starting to turn their mind to that. And of course, people are concerned about the fact that this dispute, this conflict, is ongoing. So, yeah, it's still, and of course not just the fuel, it’s obviously the fertiliser as well.

And farmers will be making that decision about whether they need to finish off their crops. And I think we're probably okay now with fertiliser, but you know, people still don't have confidence. And of course now that the cost of fuel has gone up as well, you know.

That's making a big, big, big deal not just for our farmers and our miners, but just for everyday Australians, you know, just going about their business, and especially the people that I represent, they travel many, many kilometres and they use a lot more diesel than other people do. OLIVER PETERSON: Yeah. And will that be part of discussion, Minister King, do you think, around the Cabinet table again shortly, that you might have to look, depending on fuel supply and what's going to happen out of the Strait and prices, that you may have to extend once again the cut to the fuel excise?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Well, on the supply itself, we've taken a lot of action to make sure that that is secure through extending Export Finance Australia's capability to buy diesel and petrol, so liquid fuel. So, that's been really important. There is a lot of storage up in the north.

I note the WA Government has invested in a bit of a reserve as well. So, that's really important, particularly, as Melissa said, for her constituents up in that region, which is vast. And, Melissa is quite right, they have to travel, and indeed they do travel a very long way to do their work and live their lives.

As to the excise, we have revised that recently. For the Strait of Hormuz and how we then deal with looking at the fuel excise into the future, it really will have to be something we consider as this goes on, and that is because it is changing so frequently and it's very, very hard to predict what's going to happen, as everyone understands. But I mean, in the main, we hope it de-escalates, but even if it does, there's a long tail to this, no doubt about it.

OLIVER PETERSON: 1300 22 1025. This is Behind Party Lines. Melissa Price, Liberal MP for Durack.

Madeleine King, the Federal Minister for Resources. This is Wednesday at 9 to 4, you're on Drive with Oliver Peterson, 102.5 ABC Perth. Some feedback here.

Lee says it's a disaster to allow Alcoa to continue to destroy more of the only old-growth Jarrah forest in the world. We need to protect, not destroy. Bill saying he hopes the environment has high consideration with the mining, something which has been seriously lacking with bauxite.

And Linda says, will it mean Alcoa will be given the go-ahead to keep destroying our forests around Perth, Minister? Because we've heard from the Conservation Council of WA, who claims that your government is demonstrating your willingness to advance the interests of foreign powers and corporations. What would you say to that?

MINISTER MADELEINE KING : Oh, is it the Conservation Council WA saying this government is advancing the interests of foreign powers? I mean, how ridiculous. But first, to what Lee and Bill and Linda have said, which I count as more important to me, as individuals.

My understanding is the state government is working with Alcoa around the old-growth Jarrah, and they've obviously been given a significant fine around the rehabilitation of the old-growth Jarrah forest. There's no doubt it is a big challenge to manage the environment and mining, and managing those things is important because that's what gives mining companies, like Alcoa, but they're not the only ones, the social licence to operate, and we need for them to have that support.

There's always going to be people that don't like mining, and I understand that. But we do need mining. Everything we have has at one point been accumulated from something by virtue of mining.

And this gallium that we're talking about is, to be frank, vital to our national defence. And for the Conservation Council of WA to say it's a sell-out to national interests, well, that's absolutely ridiculous. This is in Australia's interests.

Yeah, we do get investment from other countries. We certainly do. We always have.

It is vital to our resources sector. It's vital to our agricultural sector, as Melissa will testify, I'm sure. We need international collaboration for our own national security and energy security, as we've just spoken about through the liquid fuel.

So, I, yeah, I would reject that characterisation entirely from the Conservation Council of Western Australia. OLIVER PETERSON: Right. Nick wants to ask you, Melissa, is, the fundamental question, Nick says, is, are BHP workers in the Pilbara underpaid?

Because he says that's not the sense he gets. The nurses and our teachers are, but they can't leverage against profitability of a business. What would you say to Nick?

MELISSA PRICE: Well, I don't believe they're underpaid, but I haven't done a compare and contrast of every mine site around the state. My sense is that people who work in the Pilbara are paid well. Whether they're the highest paid in Australia, I couldn't say that.

I can't say that. And I actually, I'm not even entirely sure if people were FIFOing into the Pilbara doing the same role. As I said, 80 per cent of the workers we're talking about are living in the Pilbara, so their wages may be less than those people who FIFO, but I'm not entirely sure.

OLIVER PETERSON: Let's talk about a state election issue because it has implications for both of your parties: One Nation chomping at the bit to test Labor's popularity, both state and federal, as they see a rise in their party's popularity federally. How worried, Madeleine King, should your party be about the Secret Harbour by-election? MINISTER MADELEINE KING: I'm looking forward to the Secret Harbour by-election.

I mean, in a way, I'm not because I'm sad that Paul Papalia has retired. But for someone that has put in over 45 years of service, I think, in the military and then in Parliament and as a Minister, you know, hats off to Paul, he's done a tremendous job. But I am very excited for the candidate, Georgia Tree, who – OLIVER PETERSON: Used to work with you.

MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Yeah, she did, and she was an electorate officer. And, as other MPs will know and members of the community know, electorate officers are some of the people in our community most in touch with the community because they field phone calls and have discussions with constituents that kind of find themselves at the last – we're the last refuge in a way.

OLIVER PETERSON: Living in North Perth at the moment, though. Inglewood, I should say. MINISTER MADELEINE KING: She’s from Warnbro, went to Warnbro Primary School, went to Warnbro High, and believe me when I say, if you've gone to Warnbro Primary and Warnbro High, you are a local.

I went to Safety Bay Primary and Safety Bay High. I'm a local. I haven't lived there all my life, but most of my life, and Georgia is exactly the same.

OLIVER PETERSON: Do you think it's an unfair crack at pollies – and Melissa, to you too, ‘cause you've got the largest electorate in Australia – about living in the electorate and obviously representing the electorate? Because, Melissa, you represent a lot of these states. MELISSA PRICE: I do indeed represent a lot of this state.

And so we live in Geraldton, so the people who live in Halls Creek, you know, they get a bit cranky with me because I don't live in Halls Creek, and the people who live in Bullsbrook, they also get cranky with me because I don't, because I don't live in the electorate. But it is very difficult, and it's not always perfect. Sometimes we see it, especially our metropolitan colleagues, sometimes they live just outside.

Of course, it is ideal if somebody lives in the electorate, especially if they've been living there for some time. You understand what the issues are. But I don't think it's fatal for anybody.

But I do want to give a shout-out because, of course, we are talking about the Secret Harbour by-election that's coming up, and of course, Ryan Robertson, who is the Liberal Party candidate. I mean, what are the chances that someone who is a submariner, as in Paul Papalia, is retiring and that there is a candidate who is also a submariner? I mean, does anyone else find that just a bit quirky?

OLIVER PETERSON: It is a bit quirky, isn't it? And there's a third party in this too, right? One Nation.

Is it a real threat, do you believe, Melissa, for the state seat of Secret Harbour? MELISSA PRICE: Well, I'm not entirely sure for the state seat of One Nation – sorry, of Secret Harbour. Clearly, it has been a Labor stronghold for some time.

Now, you'd have to say Labor is on the nose in this state and also federally. So, you'd like to think that we could chip away at some of that margin. Look, you can't say that One Nation isn't relevant at the moment, and that would be very foolish to do that.

I think it'll come down to who the candidate is. If they can get themselves a candidate who lives locally, then that might make a difference. But I think with what we've got, we've got a good, strong Labor candidate and we've got an exceptionally good Liberal candidate.

So, that's the starting point. So, I think it'll all depend on who they've got. OLIVER PETERSON: Fair enough.

I heard your leader, Angus Taylor, last night on 7.30 say he's ruling out a coalition with Pauline Hanson. He says, quote, “There's no plan to form any kind of coalition with One Nation.” Is that a good move? MELISSA PRICE: 100 per cent.

Now, don't forget, I've won the seat of Durack five times, and I think five times I've had a One Nation candidate. Everyone talks about doing deals with One Nation. Well, we've probably done what people would call a preference deal with them, probably the five times.

I can tell you that they don't comply with the deal, we do. So, you know, let's talk about what we really mean by a deal, because every time I've said I'm going to do something, I've stuck to that plan. You know, we're the adults in the room, we're the disciplined ones, we're the managers in the House, and they haven't complied with what they're going to do.

So, you know, I'm not sure that we'd be signing up to do anything with One Nation. OLIVER PETERSON: Alright, test though, nonetheless, I know they are state issues, I know they are federal issues, Minister King, but nonetheless, it will be a fascinating by-election. MINISTER MADELEINE KING: It certainly will.

And it's a beautiful part of the world. I spent a lot of my childhood down there. I spend a fair bit of time down there now.

Like Melissa, I don't live in Secret Harbour. I live around the corner in Shoalwater. But it's always, you can't live everywhere, right?

But, you know, what we know about Pauline Hanson is, you know, she voted against tax cuts, she's voted against more housing, she's voted against Medicare in the federal parliament, this is where all these votes have happened. In a speech at the press gallery, she wanted to cut the federal Health Department, so that means cuts to Medicare. So, these are things that people have to think about.

And when it comes to a by-election, you know, the choice becomes very real as opposed to the polling. Having said that, the polling, I think, reflects what people are feeling, and I do understand that. Times are tough at the moment, there's no doubt about it.

We've had a lot of difficulties in the world, and people can feel it. So, I do understand that. OLIVER PETERSON: Minister King, thank you for coming to the studio today.

Good to see you. MINISTER MADELEINE KING: Thank you so much. Good to hear from you, Melissa.

OLIVER PETERSON: And Melissa Price, the Liberal MP there for Durack. The Department of Industry, Science and Resources recognises the First Peoples of this Nation and their ongoing cultural and spiritual connections to the lands, waters, seas, skies, and communities. We Acknowledge First Nations Peoples as the Traditional Custodians and Lore Keepers of the oldest living culture and pay respects to their Elders past and present.

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