Interview on ABC Sydney with Craig Reucassel

Website search Interviewer Craig Reucassel Interview discusses new data centre legislation, renewable energy, and copyright law. CRAIG REUCASSEL, HOST : Tim Ayres is the Minister for Industry and Innovation and the Minister for Science and he's been dealing with a lot of AI issues and will still be part of the AI approach for the Government. He joins us now.

Morning, Minister. SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE : G'day, Craig. The app's down, isn't it? : Yeah, the app's down.

Can AI fix this? No, well, look – : It's like when the school teacher said, you know, "hands up who's not here?" : Yeah, exactly, exactly. Now, was this speech meant to calm us about the threats of AI?

Is this why we kind of had this speech from the Prime Minister? : Well, I think the speech did a number of things. Firstly, it made really clear that the direction that the Government is moving in here, making the Data Centre Expectations mandatory, putting Australian standards in legislation. But secondly, what the speech did was say to Australians, we are going to do this together in the Australian way.

Like, artificial intelligence is happening now. Australia has real advantages as a place for investment and we've got a real national interest in securing key artificial intelligence capabilities like training here, so that these, you know, this is the construction site of large frontier models. We want that done here in Australia, so it's shaped by Australians, but we're going to do it together and we're going to do it in our national interest.

And I think that's a mobilisational point, right? That is about Australians, all of us. The room had trade unions and tech companies, artists and creatives and the legal community, all there want everybody to lift in the national interest here. : In terms of it, one of the issues obviously, people have been concerned about is about data centres and not just about them being in their backyard, that's one of the issues, but also about the use of water and energy.

This is what the Prime Minister said about energy. PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA, THE HON ANTHONY ALBANESE : We'll create a legal obligation for the next generation of large-scale data centres to underwrite new power supply, to pay their full share of grid connection so no costs are passed on to homes or businesses and to put at least as much energy into our grid as they take out of it. [END EXCERPT] : So, have they got to build as much energy as they use in the grid, are they going to be building renewable energy?

What are they going to be doing? : That's exactly right. That is what the Data Centre Expectations set out that I launched earlier this year, and that will be made mandatory in the new Australian standards for large data centres. As the Albanese Government is building out a new modern electricity grid, adding gigawatts of capacity every year, we want to see data centres adding to that, not competing for scarce resources and that will assist Australia's objective here, having a modern electricity grid that powers the industrial jobs of the future and delivers lower cost electricity for homes and businesses. : Minister Ayres, the Prime Minister in his speech yesterday, did mention renewable energy a lot.

But I must admit that my reading of it was that there wouldn't be a requirement on data centres to use renewable energy. So, can they use any type of energy? Can they use gas, can they use coal?

Can they use nuclear? Can they use waste to energy? Can they use all, any energy? : Well, the new electricity going into the grid will be renewable energy, wind and solar backed by batteries and gas and large-scale new electricity developments are all renewable projects.

That will be included in the legislation. : So, you require them to use renewable energy? : Yeah, well the idea that they would use anything else doesn't make economic sense. : Can I just look to that? Because right now Cloud Carrier proposing a gas-fired project in Moss Vale for an AI data centre. So, they're not going to be feeding into the grid.

So, I understand your point that if you're getting from the grid, most stuff going to the grid now is renewables because it's cheaper. But Cloud Carrier proposing a gas-fired AI centre in Moss Vale. According to Greenpeace, this would wipe out New South Wales' entire projected 2028 emissions cuts if this was built.

Are you allowing them to build a gas-fired data centre? : Can I make a couple of points about this project? I mean, I have had a look at what's been publicly reported. It is a project that's been assessed by the New South Wales Government, so I'll leave the details of that but it's not consistent with those set of principles.

That seems to me to be self-evident. But the government in New South Wales will work its way through that set of issues. If you pause to think about it for a moment, there are many data centre development applications out there.

Not all of them will be built, not all - : I understand that. I guess my question is - : - and proposals. It's hard to imagine a proposal of that scale.

I mean, gas is a very expensive way of generating electricity. It's used in our electricity grid for peaking capacity. I know it's playing a smaller and smaller role because batteries, including the household batteries that have been installed under the Government's, under the Albanese Government's plan, are playing a bigger and bigger role providing grid stability.

But look, I'll let the proponents of that particular data centre make their case in front of the State Government. : I guess my question though, my question to you, Minister, though, is you say it's against the principles of what's laid down. Will it be a rule or a principle? Because I can go against the principle, but I can't go against the law. : Well, well, Craig, you wouldn't go against a principle or a law. : No, but answer the question, Minister Ayres, is it going to be a law that has to be met? : No, no, no, no, no being cute about this question.

These standards will be mandatory. : Okay. All right. : That is delivering data centre development and training development here in Australia, consistent with a set of national rules. That will be standards in legislation that is in the national interest.

That's the purpose of much of what the Prime Minister announced yesterday. : All right, thank you. Just quickly, you also spoke about copyright. That's what the Prime Minister had to say. : No company should use Australian books, music, art or news to build or train AI without the artist's control.

And that includes the artist's control of the price and value of their work. Anything less is theft. [END EXCERPT] So, look, a good principle statement there in terms of the approach to artists. Will that also take into consideration artists from Australia whose work has already been used to build AI models, or is this just looking forward? : Well, this is, this is about artificial intelligence training conducted here in Australia, where Australia's copyright framework applies.

We have been unequivocal about this issue, about being very clear that there'll be no text and data mining exemption for Australia. Copyright laws will not be undermined. These protections are really important for content creators, for artists, for songwriters, for musicians.

That is how, for many of them, that is how they get paid for their work, and we will deliver. This is work being led by the Attorney General, Michelle Rowland, that we will deliver this work within the framework of existing copyright protection. That's our very clear commitment. : So, is this going to be a boon?

So, this could be, I mean, this is potentially a boon for artists. So, are people like Claude and ChatGPT going to have to do deals, for instance, with Sony and other music publishers to try and buy rights to use their work? If you're an independent person that have to buy your rights as well? : Well, we've set out the parameters here.

I don't want to front run the work that the Attorney General is doing carefully with all of those organisations to develop a practical, to develop a practical way forward and a framework for all of that engagement, so, copyright protections will be respected, no undermining of copyright law, no text and data mining exemption but at the same time it is in Australia's interest in resilience and sovereignty terms that capabilities like artificial intelligence training happen here in Australia and we expect everybody to get around the table and resolve these questions. : All right.

Well, it's been interesting to see the follow-up. I appreciate you speaking to us this morning, Minister. : Thanks, Craig. : And Minister Tim Ayres there, the Minister for Industry and Innovation, the Minister for Science as well. The Department of Industry, Science and Resources recognises the First Peoples of this Nation and their ongoing cultural and spiritual connections to the lands, waters, seas, skies, and communities.

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