Interview with Sara Tomevska, Afternoon Briefing, ABC

Subjects: One Nation, AI Sara Tomevska: Well, for more on news of the day, I want to bring in Assistant Treasurer Daniel Mulino. Welcome to the program. Daniel Mulino: Thanks very much for having me on.

Let’s start with Pauline Hanson’s comments on this podcast. What is your reaction to her suggestion that the end of the White Australia policy was the start of migration issues in Australia? Well, look, I haven’t seen the whole interview, but look, just on the face of it, that is a ludicrous statement, frankly, and I think Pauline Hanson needs to explain herself.

Is she saying that we need to go back to the White Australia policy? Look, at the very least, what Pauline Hanson has been doing in this interview is throwing around, far too casually, very divisive comments where she’s singled out people of a particular faith group. And that kind of behaviour is just not appropriate in modern Australia, in public life.

What she’s also done is made statements with no factual backing, no evidence sitting beside them. And so, she really needs to substantiate what she’s saying. And frankly, she needs to come out with a fulsome explanation for how it can possibly be justified to make such divisive, inappropriate comments.

You say they’re ludicrous, divisive, inappropriate. Would you describe the comments as racist? Well, as I said, I haven’t been through the whole transcript, but even just seeing the excerpt – Well saying that the White Australia policy was the start of migration issues?

Well as I said, I think that that is frankly a ridiculous statement, and I think she does need to explain herself. She’s made comments about people from a particular faith background and the NDIS. And as I said, there’s no evidence backing that up.

To single people out of a particular faith background, or people of a particular racial background, is highly inappropriate in public life. And I think Pauline Hanson really does need to come back onto the public record and explain what she really thinks about these issues, what she meant by those statements. Yeah, so she said that she thinks Muslim Australians are ripping off the system, as you say, without citing evidence for those claims.

We know culturally and linguistically diverse Australians in general are in fact underrepresented on the scheme. They make up about 9 per cent of participants when the NDIA’s own projection was that they would make up 20 per cent of participants by 2018. Do you worry this kind of characterisation could prevent migrants from actually seeking help?

Well, firstly, I saw Mark Butler being interviewed on this issue earlier today and he made it very clear that he’s received no briefing that supports the allegations that have been made by Pauline. But I think, to the point you’re making – we have in some communities, some CALD communities, and particularly with recent arrivals, seen that many people have identified barriers to accessing government services, and NDIS is one of those.

I’ve in fact in my own electorate, which is a very diverse electorate, been involved in community forums at which people have identified some of the challenges they have in accessing NDIS programs. So, yeah, what we need to be doing is actually helping people who have genuine needs access those kinds of programs, not making these kinds of ill‑founded comments.

The Opposition leader today said that these comments were a matter for Pauline Hanson. What do you make of that response? Well, again, I haven’t seen his comments, so I don’t really want to comment on them.

But I would just say more generally about the Opposition over the last few months, that it is clear in some of their policy positioning that they are struggling, frankly, with how to deal with One Nation. And on a range of policy matters, including some that were outlined in the Budget reply speech, they seem to be going down the path of One Nation. So, look, we have 3 right-wing parties at the moment jostling with each other for territory and I think, you know, we’ve seen some rather strange announcements from the Opposition, frankly, and it appears as though they are figuring out on a few fronts ways in which to deal with One Nation and unfortunately that seems to be to copy them.

There are reports as well from the One Nation camp in the Nine papers claiming Channel 7 pressured Pauline Hanson into doing the podcast with Tommy Robinson. Does that pass the pub test in your view? Well, I’m not aware of the details of that assertion.

Sure. We’ve also seen your boss in hot water recently over a podcast appearance. Should politicians just stop doing these podcasts?

Oh no. Look, I think podcasts have become a part of modern media and it’s a really important way to reach out to a broader audience. Look, I think that, you know, the vast majority of politicians interacting with podcasts are valuable and reach parts of our community.

But look, I think whether it’s on a podcast or not is no reason to be making the kinds of comments on people from a particular faith background that Pauline Hanson did. I think that’s just something she should be not doing, whether it’s on a podcast or any other form of media. Daniel Mulino, I want to ask you about the government’s AI policy that has been unveiled this week.

Plans to set guardrails around artificial intelligence, including a national framework and laws to regulate data centres, use of water and electricity. Why does this legislation have to be introduced next year? We had Ed Husic on the program yesterday and he suggested there’s an urgent need to do this now.

Well, so I think – can I just firstly say that AI is a huge opportunity. At a macroeconomic level, if you look at our last quarterly results, a significant proportion of that was data centres, and we are one of the world’s leading jurisdictions there. We’re also seeing AI play out in a range of sectors, including in the healthcare sector with better diagnostics, and in my own portfolio, where AI is being used, for example, by regulators and financial sector organisations to combat scams.

To jump in, though – Clearly, there are a range of areas of community concern. And so I think what the Prime Minister’s speech yesterday flagged was that we need more coordination in relation to how we deal with this. Sorry to butt in.

Doesn’t that kind of highlight the urgency with which to legislate some guardrails around AI? Yeah, and look, I think the point that I was getting on to was that AI is touching all portfolios, and it’s touching all levels of government. And I think the 2 things that I take out of the PM’s speech is that, firstly, there’s going to be an Office of AI set up in the Prime Minister’s department, which is really important so that we can coordinate across portfolios.

And secondly, that on a range of issues, including data centres, we need to have coordination across jurisdictions. What I would say is, whenever you’re getting into coordination across portfolios or across jurisdictions, you need to step carefully. And I think that that broad approach of making sure that we’re setting, devising solutions for each of the discrete policy problems, but doing it in the broader context is appropriate, but it’s not something to be rushed.

Just on that Office, Daniel Mulino, how many additional jobs will be created in the Prime Minister’s department to staff the Office of AI? So, I don’t think he’s gone into that level of detail yet, but I think what was critical in his speech yesterday was to flag that he is going to centralise the policy coordination. That was really what was being flagged and I think he laid out the case for that.

So, that was really important. I think the next step is to figure out at first instance what the resourcing of that would need to be, and I’m sure that that would evolve over time. But I think what he really did in that speech, which was a very important speech in terms of flagging to the Australian community, we want to embrace the AI opportunity, but we’re going to do it with the appropriate guardrails and protections being developed along the way so that there’s social licence for AI as it’s being rolled out.

Well, The Greens are calling for a moratorium on data centres, which Industry and Science Minister Tim Ayres called a pretty dopey position yesterday. But if it’s so important to get these new rules for data centres right, why can’t project approvals be paused until rules are in place? Well, look, I think that kind of binary approach is not the right approach with something that’s so important for the country.

We’re seeing data centres – There are calls for moratoriums in the US, parts of Europe. Ireland in fact has enforced a 3‑year ban. So, it’s not unheard of.

I think what the Prime Minister is doing is bringing this to National Cabinet as a priority and I think that’s a better approach. And what we can do at National Cabinet is see the federal government and the 8 jurisdictions all work together as a priority. So, I think he’s dealing with this with a great sense of urgency and for me that is a much better solution than stopping all works.

Investment bank UBS conducted a survey of 200 ASX listed companies to see how many jobs they’re likely to shed in the next 3 years due to AI. The answer was about 10 to 15 per cent. Is that cause for worry?

I think whenever you see new technology entering into an economy with the opportunity for productivity growth and new ways of doing things, you have to be alert to the potential for workplace disruption. And that’s something that the ACTU has highlighted. What I would say firstly is that AI is clearly going to create a number of jobs.

Secondly, there are going to be a number of applications of AI where it complements people’s work. So, for example, in health care, it’s a diagnostic aid, which is making a lot of work in that sector far more accurate. And in my own portfolio in financial services, AI is being used by regulators to complement the work of existing staff and being used in a lot of banks and insurers to aid in their decision making.

So, look, the potential for workplace disruption is there and that’s why in addition to helping the economy to roll out AI, our skills agenda is absolutely critical to make sure that people can upskill, they can take advantage of new jobs as they arise in the economy. Daniel Mulino, there’s plenty to talk about. That’s all we have time for today.

Thank you for joining us. Thanks very much.