Interview with Andrew Clennell, Sky News
ANDREW CLENNELL, HOST: Joining me live from Brisbane is Environment and Water Minister Murray Watt, who also likes to talk a bit about One Nation. Murray Watt, thanks for your time. Let's start with these polls.
There would have been hope in the major political parties and the Government that some of these shenanigans involving Pauline Hanson in Britain would have eroded the One Nation vote. Are you starting to think she's a bit Teflon? MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: G’day, Andrew.
Good to see you again. Look, I mean, I think what we're going to see between now and election day is polls move around – the last set of polls had One Nation falling a bit, this time they're up a little bit – we're going to continue to see that over the next few months and the next couple of years. Obviously, what will end up mattering is how people decide to vote on election day and I think once we get to that point, people will focus more on which party is best served to help them with their cost of living pressures.
And of course, we’ll be able to point to the wage rises we’ve delivered, the cost of living relief we've delivered, and the fact that One Nation has always voted with the Liberals to oppose those things. So you know, I don't think we'll necessarily see the current polling reflected when we get to election day, when people really start thinking about who's going to manage government in a way that best helps their families.
ANDREW CLENNELL: But her approval ratings, Pauline Hanson's, hold up. Like in that Newspoll, I think she was 47 approved, 47 disapproved. The Prime Minister and Angus Taylors don't, they've got that net difference – net negative rating.
What do you think that says? MURRAY WATT: Look, I think everyone understands at the moment that there's a lot of Australians who are doing it tough and feeling frustrated by the way things are going in their lives and in Australia. And, you know, a lot of the time people like to give politicians a bit of a kick and this is their way of doing that.
But again, what we're going to be focusing on is not the sort of shenanigans, as you say, that Pauline Hanson's been up to over the last few days in Europe, but actually what we can be doing each and every day to help Australians with those cost of living pressures. ANDREW CLENNELL: What do you make of those latest New South Wales poll numbers? I mean, Chris Minns is about to lose to an empty chair.
MURRAY WATT: I don't think that's what we'll see when we get to the New South Wales election. But as the Premier, Premier Minns, has acknowledged, there has been a surge of voting towards One Nation. And as I say, I think that's a combination of frustration that people are feeling.
But also, as I've said to you before, Andrew, the complete collapse in support for the Liberal and National parties – that's where most of this One Nation vote is coming from. But, you know, there is no doubt that people are feeling frustrated. It’s why our Government is doing everything we can to deliver the real change that Australians want – not pursue these sort of debates about monocultures and multicultures, but about what we can be doing to put more money in people's pockets.
That's, I think at the end of the day, what people are going to be concerned about. We will have a good record on that front, as will Premier Minns, and we'll be able to point to the number of times that One Nation votes with the Liberals to support cuts to people's pay, cuts to their social security, cuts to health and education funding, and I think people will have a different view.
ANDREW CLENNELL: What do you make of the Hanson argument she wasn't advocating for a white Australia policy at all in the Tommy Robinson interview? MURRAY WATT: Well, I think everyone can see – all you've got to do is look at what Pauline Hanson actually said, which was where she basically said that Australia started going bad, in her view, when the White Australia policy was removed.
She can do everything she can to try to clean that up now. She's had Barnaby Joyce, her own daughter, other One Nation MP’s out today trying to clean it up. But what Pauline Hanson said is what she believes.
Now, I thought it was extraordinary that this trip that Pauline Hanson undertook to Europe, she's described it as a fact-finding mission, but all I can see is her taking the opportunity to go and dump on Australia while she's overseas. She's said that Australians are stupid. She’s, of course, talked about workers in Australia being lazy.
What becomes clear is that she's got a very negative view of Australians and she's prepared to dump on her own country when she's overseas. That's not what someone who wants to be a leader of this country should be doing. You should be over there talking up Australia, not talking us down.
ANDREW CLENNELL: You see, how does this rank for you traditionally in a political sense? You've been a political warrior for a while. Now, you're used to being able to kick the likes of Angus Taylor or Peter Dutton, and that's all seen as fair game.
But if you have a go at Pauline Hanson in the manner you just did, you're probably helping her out electorally. MURRAY WATT: Look, I'll let people make their own decisions about what Pauline Hanson says, what she does, and what I've got to say about her. It is my role, amongst others, to point out the fact that Pauline Hanson doesn't back up what she says with action – that she says she's for battlers but when she goes to Canberra she does everything she can to vote with the Liberals to make life harder for battlers.
I mean, there's been a lot of focus on her hanging out in some new bad version ofWhite Lotus with Gina Rinehart. For me the issue isn't about her being in a bad new episode of White Lotus with Gina Rinehart, it's about the fact that she can laze around Europe with Gina Rinehart while talking about Australians being lazy. That's the hypocrisy we constantly see from One Nation, is that they want to have one set of rules for themselves, one set of rules for Australian workers, and Australian workers are the people who always do worse off under that.
ANDREW CLENNELL: I heard her call – just briefly on this because I want to move on, but I heard her call some Australian policies stupid around transgender and that sort of thing. Where did she say Australians were lazy? Excuse my ignorance.
MURRAY WATT: No, what I was pointing out was the comment she made at the Press Club – ANDREW CLENNELL: MURRAY WATT: That she has referred to Australian workers as lazy. The comment she's made overseas is, we're too stupid over there – being in Australia. Now again, if I was in an overseas country talking about Australia, I wouldn't be describing Australians as stupid.
I'd be talking up Australia and how great we are. I mean, you know, I, amongst many – ANDREW CLENNELL: I think she might have been saying your Government was stupid with its policy, wasn't she? Or correct me if I'm wrong there.
She was saying net zero is stupid. MURRAY WATT: Well, the words were, “we're too stupid over there” – so that's what she thinks about Australians. Now you know, as I say, the role of any Australian politician when they're overseas should be talking up Australia.
Now, I think that Australia is the best country in the world and I think Australians are the best people in the world. She goes overseas and dumps on Australia and calls us stupid. I mean, but the even more important thing, Andrew, is what she actually does when she goes to Canberra which is to vote with the Liberals to hold down wages, to oppose cost of living relief, and to make life harder for people at a time when they're really struggling.
ANDREW CLENNELL: Alright. We're headed for the Labor conference this week. Will this be another stage-managed exercise involving Anthony Albanese being in complete control?
MURRAY WATT: I wouldn't put it that way, Andrew. I think obviously people have got the opportunity to put forward whatever motion they want for debate, and I'm sure we'll see some debates at conference about the direction of the country, and that's as it should be at the conference. ANDREW CLENNELL: Yeah, but he won't lose anything.
MURRAY WATT: I do think that – ANDREW CLENNELL: MURRAY WATT: Well, that remains to be seen. That remains to be seen, Andrew. I'm not going to predict the democratic operations of our conference.
But look, I think it is the case that the vast majority of delegates at this conference are supportive of the actions our Government has been taking. And that, of course, is led by the Prime Minister. We are delivering the cost of living relief that people are looking for.
We are delivering the kind of policies that allow workers to organise and to get better pay rises. Some of the recent changes that we've made to the tax system are things that our members and delegates have wanted to see happen for a long time. So I think you will see a fair degree of support for both the Prime Minister and the Government for the work that we've been doing.
But equally, I'm sure that people will have a range of issues that they want us to debate to keep moving forward. ANDREW CLENNELL: It almost feels like the tax things you did in the Budget on negative gearing and capital gains, and even the announcement on artificial intelligence last week, were partly about getting ahead of this conference – placating the base.
Is that fair? MURRAY WATT: No, I wouldn't agree with that Andrew. I mean, when it comes to the tax changes, they were motivated, as we always said, by helping more Australians to get into the housing market and to even up the way that income from work is taxed with the way that income from assets is taxed.
That was the motivation there. They are things that many of our members have called for for a long time but they’re things that Australians generally have wanted to see with so many people locked out of the housing market and wanting to see tax relief for the average Australian worker. And that’s what we’ve delivered.
On the AI front, sure, there is a lot of interest about that issue amongst our members, amongst unions that are affiliated to the Labor Party. But I don't know about you, but I find it's one of the issues that is most raised with me by members of the community. People are concerned about what the future is going to look like when it comes to AI.
And that's why the Prime Minister made that speech last week, committing us to standards that fit Australian values when it comes to the development of AI going forward. ANDREW CLENNELL: Well, there's been a clear denial from the PM on the weekend that this draft platform motion about getting a fair share from the resources industry has anything to do with the gas tax.
Why isn't that to do with the gas tax? MURRAY WATT: Well, I think the way that that proposal and the platform was reported by some media outlets wasn't actually factually correct, Andrew, and I think that was the point that the Prime Minister was making – ANDREW CLENNELL: You're referring to the AFR. I should just point that out, the Australian Financial Review, but go on.
MURRAY WATT: Yeah, the AFR. Not your media outlet, a different media outlet. But, I mean, from the Government's point of view, what we're seeking to do more than anything when it comes to gas is about maximising our fuel security.
We are still in a difficult situation when it comes to fuel security internationally, and also what we can be doing about the price of gas and cost of living support for people when it comes to energy. That's obviously what's motivating our work around a domestic gas reservation. Again, that's something that a lot of Australians have wanted to see happen for a while.
It's something that we think is important to secure fuel in the way that we need and to help with those prices of gas. That's really our focus and I think that's the point that the Prime Minister was making the other day. ANDREW CLENNELL: Alright, the Bennelong MP, Jerome Laxale, has indicated that he’ll back a motion seeking to stop tax breaks which disincentivise the reduction in carbon emissions.
That's from Labor's Environment Network. Now, this is the biggest example of this, I understand, to be the diesel fuel tax credit. Do you think this will have any success at the conference opposing that?
MURRAY WATT: I wouldn't want to predict the way the conference is going to vote on that or anything else, Andrew, but I think it's a healthy thing for us to be having discussions about our tax policy, about our energy policies at our national conference. We only have these conferences once every three years and it’s a good opportunity for different views to be aired.
Of course, we’ve undertaken major taxation reform when it comes to gas, when it comes to income in general, capital gains tax. We’ve done a lot on that front but I won’t get ahead of the conference and what it wants to debate or decide – ANDREW CLENNELL: Okay. Is there any guarantees this week the Government will offer the unions in terms of jobs when it comes to artificial intelligence?
MURRAY WATT: I'm certainly not aware of any guarantees being given to unions or anyone else about these things, but our Government is very focused on the potential impact of artificial intelligence and people's jobs, just as we're focused on the impact on artists when it comes to their copyright, water usage – that's obviously something I'm working on in my portfolio.
There's a whole range of different issues that arise as a result of the rollout of AI, and we want to be ahead of the game, not following well behind. That’s why we’ve taken the action we have in the last week or two. It's why we're in discussions with states and territories about energy use, about water use, how to manage these things well.
ANDREW CLENNELL: MURRAY WATT: I mean, I've seen the Liberals put around that we're handing some sort of veto power to unions about whether AI can be rolled out. No one is proposing that. That's just a line from the Liberal Party.
I think it is fair that employees in a workplace that is going to have AI brought into it have some say over what that AI can do and what impact it might have on their jobs. I think that's fair in a workplace but no one’s handing anyone any vetos. ANDREW CLENNELL: Alright.
Well, I've got to go, but I'll just ask very briefly for a very quick answer here. Will any of these data centres be likely to go through the EPBC process, do you think? MURRAY WATT: It's possible, Andrew.
To my knowledge, we haven't had that happen yet, it certainly hasn't been raised with me. But really the test for whether something goes through the EPBC process is whether it's likely to have a significant impact on nationally protected matters. Now, if a data centre was going to be clearing a huge amount of habitat that had threatened species in species in it, then it would need to go through the EPBC process, just like a property development or a coal mine or a wind farm.
If it was going to have major impacts on the water table, then it might need to go through that EPBC process in the same way that a mine might need to as well. So we won't be sort of distinguishing between different types of projects. It really comes down to whether a particular project is going to have that significant impact on those nationally protected matters.
ANDREW CLENNELL: Murray Watt, thanks so much for your time. See you in Adelaide. MURRAY WATT: Sounds good, Andrew.
We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture. We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.