Interview on Sky AM Agenda with Laura Jayes

Website search Interviewer Laura Jayes Interview discusses Artificial Intelligence, and One Nation. LAURA JAYES, HOST: Welcome back. Let's talk AI with the Industry and Innovation Minister, Tim Ayres.

He's here in the studio with me. The Prime Minister in a landmark speech last week – I don't think it's a mistake that he did it, obviously he's pivoting his attention there, as you've been for quite some time Tim. I'm still concerned that this Government isn't moving fast enough.

Is that a risk? SENATOR TIM AYRES, MINISTER FOR INDUSTRY AND INNOVATION AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE: Well, I certainly think that the message from the Prime Minister was absolutely, very clearly to the creative community of copyright holders, we are not moving towards a text and data mining exemption. We will not be undermining copyright.

Secondly, it's to Australians to say data centre investment will happen here on Australia's terms and we've set the standards. But also there's a message about urgency here. This is a national priority, securing artificial intelligence here in Australia's interest in our broader economic resilience interest, in the interest of our future security.

So, Australia is shaping this technology, not just being at the end of a long supply chain where we're consuming other people's technology. So, that is the national task that's in front of us. We want to see data centre investment that lifts electricity investment and is a net positive for the grid.

Want to see water security. All this will be enshrined in legislation, but we're going to get on with the task of making sure that Australia gets the technological capability it needs for the future. Jeff Bleich, who works for Anthropic, has said that he respects Australia's sovereignty in this space and the right for us to set our own rules.

But before the PM speech, Anthropic were making it very clear that they need a deal on copyright if they want to make Australia the second home. Privately, has anything changed? Yeah, what this sends is a message that's very consistent on – and I won't dodge the copyright question – but on the electricity and water issues, very consistent with what the large tech companies have signed up to in Memorandums of Understanding with the Government.

What the states and territories have done. Australia is a good place for these firms to invest and they are looking for a place with a big domestic market, but also closest to the fastest growing markets in the world. On copyright, copyright protections are going to stay exactly as they are.

But there is an opportunity here for Australia to resolve these questions in an Australian way that delivers for copyright holders but also provides a certain platform for investment and that's the outcome that Michelle Rowland, the Attorney General, is leading that work to deliver that outcome for Australia because it's in our national interest to make sure it happens in the interest of copyright holders, but it's also in our national interest to secure the right technology for Australia's industrial future and our security future.

Copyright holders don't want government to deal with this on their behalf. They want to do their own deals. Anthropic doesn't want to do individual deals because of the precedent it would sit right around the world.

That's a stalemate, isn't it? Well, it's a stalemate if there's not leadership from government and that's what we're providing here. That is, providing a process, providing a way of engaging and the Prime Minister's message to the country last week was – this is an urgent national priority for artificial intelligence in Australia's national interest.

So, there's no excuses for sitting on our hands here. Let's get on with it. The Office of Artificial Intelligence in the Prime Minister's department working across the Government to secure this outcome.

Data Centre standards enshrined in legislation. Artificial Intelligence Safety Institute driving our approach – been working for five months now, working with partners overseas, security agencies here, frontier models themselves under the bonnet, working to make sure these models are safe. Then what's the timeline?

Because I know Michelle Rowland is consulting this week. Is it by the end of the year? Is it two months?

Is it one month to get actually a framework? Yeah, we'll work through these issues carefully – By the end of the year? I would like to see these issues resolved as speedily as they can be, but we won't be trampling on the rights of copyright holders to do it.

We've got a sense of national urgency and the national interest here. We need the right partners to be engaging in the right way to deliver the right outcome for Australia. On the other side, you've got a lot of people worried about their jobs.

The union saying they want veto power over when big companies start putting AI into their businesses if it affects their jobs. This is what I asked Amanda Rishworth as well. Is it your plan to actually put greater legal protections in place for workers and are you concerned about where the balance is there that might stifle that productivity ability?

Well, we have an industrial relations framework that provides for really strong rights for workers, for unions and for businesses – That’s right, will that go further? Well, Amanda Rishworth is working with a tripartite group, business and unions with working through these issues in detail. My experience, I would have thought this was an uncontroversial assertion, but I was heavily criticised in the middle of last year when I made it.

Actually, we get a better Australian outcome when unions and business are working together on these issues. For many business unions on the – Unions aren’t the be all and end all. For many businesses, they don't deal with a unionised workforce – Well, I talk to business leaders across Australia and they are curious about how it is that they are going to manage these issues in the interest of their company and the interest of their workers.

And many of them, who have not engaged with the trade union movement before, are picking up the phone because they are looking for expert views and different views because it's in everybody's interest – I would say it’s way ahead of government on this, though – There's a lot of engagement across business and also with government departments as well. They're adopting artificial intelligence to make sure a shared view.

We just deliver a better outcome when it's an Australian outcome when everybody's working together. Sure, an Australian outcome is something we can all get around, I think, Tim, but what is the Government doing in terms of helping reskill the workforce, which is expensive to do? Are our universities fit for purpose?

Is our tertiary education? Is TAFE fit for purpose right now? Because at the moment the whole conversation seems to be, at least from the unions, about how to stop AI.

We can't stop AI, we need to adapt to it. What are you doing? That is not my experience in my discussions with trade union leaders, and not my experience as a former trade union official either.

I mean, I was in manufacturing when there were waves of technology, robotics, automation – AI is different – For manufacturing workers in Western Sydney and the Hunter Valley, robotics had a profound effect. And there was never a moment where workers, tradespeople, technicians, engineers who love technology, right? They're doing those jobs because they love it.

Were saying, well, we can't have technological progress. That is not what is going on. There is concern and apprehension.

There are opportunities. There is not a single part of the economy that new technology doesn't touch. It's an opportunity for Australians to pull together and deliver a better outcome for the country.

Pauline Hanson is just being asked about extremists right now in Perth and whether they have found a home in One Nation. We'll take a quick listen in there. [CROSS TO PAULINE LIVE Q&A] CHRIS DORE, HOST: Are you scarred by that experience? I mean, talking about being a loner in Parliament and being put down and abused and so on?

I guess the first question is, has that changed in Parliament now? Do you have more people talking to you, being friendly with you, or do you still face some of that same isolation in the federal Parliament? PAULINE HANSON: Tell you the truth, yes, I do.

It's funny and I've got to be honest, a lot of the people in that place wouldn't even give them the time of day. The Greens - you tell me one of The Greens that you want to spend time with. And who'd want to spend time with Lidia Thorpe?

Not me. I can't stand even being one seat away from her. And a lot of them I don't respect because I can't believe it, surely they've got to see what's happening to our country, but they won't speak up, they won't put their hand up, they won't do anything.

They just sit there and go along with what they're told to do. And it frustrates me. You know, I am so fortunate to be a Member of Parliament.

It's not a position that I take lightly or for granted. I'm there to make decisions on behalf of the Australian people in the best interest and without fear of favour - you may not like what I'm saying or doing, but after I research and I understand what's in that piece of legislation, I have to make a decision and I do that with all my Members of Parliament.

Chris, this is what people don't understand. The major political parties, they have to go along with the what the Cabinet or caucus tell them, and they sit there on the backbench and that's it. They won't say a word out of place.

And I'd give you a case point - the Voice. Now, I stood my ground and I was the first one to come out and said, don't vote for the Voice to Parliament. I said, that's division in our nation.

And then two weeks after that, the National Party come out and said that. Then it was about four or five months later it was the Liberal Party. Well, after it went down, Glenn Stearle, your Western Australian Senator, at the back of the chamber, he called out to me, said, Pauline, you were right and everything you said about the Voice.

Did he say that on the floor of Parliament? No, he didn't. That's what I'm saying.

We've got to get away from that. We've got to have true representation because our country can't keep going the way it's going to be. Ok, that's where we leave Pauline Hanson for now.

Tim, a final question on her. She's been overseas, she's met with Tommy Robinson, she's said all sorts of things, but she's got a constituency now. Her primary vote is as high as yours in the polls.

Well, can I have it both ways, Laura, just for a second on this polling question? I may not, you know, the polling matters on election day. We're not taking anything for granted as a Government.

We're focused on the cost-of-living security issues that Australians expect. But one thing the polling does tell us that is incontrovertible – these people can't form government without each other. The Liberals and the Nationals and One Nation.

They can't live with each other, but they can't form government without each other. Who do you form government with on a primary of 30%? Well, we will campaign like we did last time for a majority Labor Government – Works both ways though, right?

Well, except Labor has always formed government at the federal level only on the basis of our own command of the House of Representatives. All of these questions were raised last time. We've won a comfortable majority.

We're using that majority carefully in the national interest. We will be campaigning for a majority Labor Government. Angus Taylor and poor old Matt Canavan – He's not your problem – And Pauline Hanson are all part of a group that can only form government if they form a compact with each other to govern.

I reckon you've got a few problems with – Pauline Hanson's prescriptions for her policy architecture have ended up being the Liberals and Nationals prescriptions. They’re extreme, they're out of touch, they're damaging to the national interest. They make the situation worse, not better.

They’re hopelessly divided, it’s division. She's just come back from her global tour of division and talking Australia down, we can expect more of the same from her. You might be proven wrong as well.

But we'll see, Tim. We'll see soon. Let's go back to Pauline Hanson.

The Department of Industry, Science and Resources recognises the First Peoples of this Nation and their ongoing cultural and spiritual connections to the lands, waters, seas, skies, and communities. We Acknowledge First Nations Peoples as the Traditional Custodians and Lore Keepers of the oldest living culture and pay respects to their Elders past and present.

We extend that respect to all First Nations Peoples. Stay informed of the latest ministry list on the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet website This website is managed by the Department of Industry, Science and Resources