ABC Radio - Alice Springs Breakfast

Topics: NT Remote Housing Agreement, Closing the Gap, Northern Territory Remote Aboriginal Investment, Luke Gosling, Garma STEWART BRASH, HOST : Earlier I caught up with the Federal Minister for Indigenous Australians Malarndirri McCarthy about the comments made by (NT Housing Minister) Steve Edgington and asked her how many houses does she believe will be built under the partnership (NT Remote Housing Agreement Partnership)?

MALLARNDIRRI MCCARTHY, MINISTER FOR INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS : Well, the partnership is up to 2,700 houses over 10 years, Stewart. That is absolutely the expectation. What we're doing at the moment is clearly the Northern Territory Government has raised some issues where it needs some support.

That is an ongoing conversation that we're having. But I am expecting 270 houses this year. : You say up to 2,700, news reports in the Australian suggesting the government, that is the NT Government, would deliver, say 2,210. Are you happy with that change?

It's something like an 18% drop in the numbers of houses delivered. Admittedly, Steve Edgington says there'll be more rooms in the houses than the three bedroom houses which were originally set out or believed to be the target houses. : The Commonwealth expects the Northern Territory and the Commonwealth itself to stick to the agreement, Stewart. And I think what's happening at this point in time is we are going to meet with not only the two governments but also with the steering committee who are very much a part of this.

One of the things that we've had to look at here is as part of Closing the Gap in housing, it was important to have Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people at the table. Especially with organisations like Aboriginal Housing NT and the four land councils, they need to be very much a part of this conversation. : Now, Minister Edgington said that the steering committee said oh, the house design of three houses wasn't right for communities.

They should be bigger and therefore with more rooms, they won't be able to build as many houses. Again, do you accept that as a reason for why there might be less than 2,700 houses? : I'm certainly looking at the figures that the Northern Territory have provided. They've built 30 houses so far (Quarter 1, 2026) with 123 bedrooms and that's averaging four bedrooms, that has gone up from three bedrooms per house - : So, inevitably they'll build fewer houses with the money they have. : Well, as I was just going to say, no doubt that is adding to their costs.

But it is important that the reason that the Northern Territory Government has provided isn't about the bedrooms, Stewart. It's actually about other issues like program management costs and headworks and land servicing. : I've just touched on up to 2,700. Because of the changes, because of more bedrooms being made, will you be OK if we don't get anywhere near 2,700?

Do you accept that 2,700 is aspirational? : What I don't accept is that program management costs should not be coming out of this agreement, and that's what the request is. And headworks and land servicing was not expected as part of this agreement. I think it's really critical to look at what the reasons are for why the Northern Territory Government is estimating a reduction.

And these are the conversations we're going to have in the next couple of weeks. : When we talk about headworks and also administration costs. Have you been told how much they wish to take out of the pie to do that work? : I do have a general idea. I'm not comfortable to express it on air at this point in time, given that we are trying to work genuinely with the Northern Territory Government.

Minister Steve Edgington has been at the table with me on many issues and I know that - : Is it significant amount of money? 10% was mentioned in the Australian newspaper. Is that the sort of quantum we're talking about? : It is a critical amount. Enough for me to say, well, hang on a minute, let's discuss this.

Because the program management costs were never part of this and certainly the headworks weren't either. : Now, Minister says the agreement doesn't explicitly exclude using the partnership agreement funds for admin and headworks. Is that true? It doesn't explicitly exclude it. : There is an understanding that the headwork costs were included in former agreements, Stewart, but they're certainly not included in this one.

So, for example, under the five-year National Partnership Agreement, the 2018 - 2023 one, the Commonwealth did not fund land servicing and the Northern Territory was allowed to use $171 million of their $550 million contribution for land servicing. So, it's always been understood the NTG would look at its own funding for headworks, land servicing, all of those things.

In terms of admin, well, this is really the first time they've come forward with that. : But did the agreement explicitly exclude that from the partnership agreement? Because that's the key thing. If it's not in there and the Minister suggests that because it's not in there.

And I said, well, if it's not in there, surely you can't do it. He said, well, because it's not in there, we might be able to do it. Should you have explicitly made it clear that this should not.

Administration should not come out of these dollars? : Well, I'll certainly go and have another look at that. But there's a lot of things that are not in there either, Stewart. We look at what we actually agreed to and this is why the conversation is really imperative as we go forward and I'm certainly happy to have that. : Has the Commonwealth stuffed up in terms of not making that explicit about the administration of the program?

Is that a stuff up? : No, not at all. All agreements, whether it's housing agreements, whether it's Closing the Gap agreements, you have to constantly negotiate with the state and territory governments and that's what we're doing in this instance. The Territory Government has come forward and says it has some major problems.

What we want to see is that those houses are built and naturally we want to see how we can assist in making sure that families across the Northern Territory still get their houses. : But are you rejecting, even before you sit down with Steve Edgerton, that administration costs should come out of the Commonwealth dollars? : We've certainly made it clear that we're not happy about it, Stewart.

That's very, very clear. What I want to understand, of course, is where the remainder of the joint steering committee are on this. They are there to give guidance.

Clearly if they different view. Well, I'll be listening to that. : How much would it compromise the program and the 10 year aims of the program if admin cost did come out of, say, the Commonwealth's dollars? : Well, where I'd like to go is really, let's go year by year, let's concentrate on this year and make sure we get those houses done - : Surely if they're taking money out of it, it's going to compromise the overall objectives. : Well, we know that each year we can continue to look at the budget, but I would like to still see that we have 270 houses built this year. : How do you think progress is going?

I think up to the end of January I saw 300 new houses built. Are you happy with progress on the 10-year partnership? : Well, I think this situation we're in now has to be resolved quite soon because the longer it goes on, the difficulty there will be in those houses being delivered. So, we do have an issue.

We've got to deal with this problem and that's what we're going to do. : Let's turn to Closing the Gap. Another report released by the Productivity Commission this week. Again, the Northern Territory does not look particularly good on paper.

How do you see the Northern Territory's progress in Closing the Gap? : It's very difficult, certainly in regards to high incarceration rates, certainly around justice issues, the out of home care. It was interesting, Stewart, that there had been a rise for the Northern Territory in terms of kinship care and those stats looked a little bit better. But given the recent controversy over the legislation that was introduced, I imagine those stats will start to turn around in the other direction because of the concern that First Nations organisations have really raised and experts in the field. : Now yesterday I also spoke to Steve Edgington about if he was worried by your threat from last year to tie funding to governments to performance on Closing the Gap.

This is what the Minister said. Look, I've heard some of the commentary around Closing the Gap and what I would say is that, look, any thought of the Commonwealth investing less in the Northern Territory, look, it's never going to close the gap and I think financial penalties, any sort of penalty, is the wrong way to look at this. : Minister Steve Edgington. Now, given the Northern Territory Government continues and our indicators continue to be going backwards or staying still, are you ready to pull some financial levers to ensure that the Northern Territory Government does more to improve those indicators? : Yes, I've already done that, Stewart.

We've just signed the Northern Territory Remote Aboriginal Investment with over $800 million in terms of the NTRAI, what I've pushed into this agreement is that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander organisations are at the table, so that they can also provide a report to me as to the satisfactory outcome or otherwise of those standards being met. And that's the first time in the history of the Commonwealth that an agreement like that has been done.

So, I've already done that now in the Northern Territory. : So, does it mean under the new NTRAI agreement that if there is not performance or you're unhappy with the performance that you will actually reduce funding, you actually will penalise the Northern Territory Government? : I can certainly withhold funding. That's correct. : Okay, and what sort of indicators, what would be the threshold by which you would withhold funding under the new NTRAI agreement? : Well, there will be six monthly reports that will come to me by both the Northern Territory Government and now Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander organisations who are involved with the agreement. : Should you have put some of these items into the partnership agreement for remote housing? : Look, I think the remote housing agreement was certainly done before my time.

I've taken that on. So, that's an agreement that was already in place. What I've done is made sure the agreements I have purview directly over, I have included and strengthened the role of outcomes. : What sort of penalties under the NTRAI will the NTG be subject to?

Will funding be reduced? What would that look like? : What I'm looking at here is really the true values of the Closing the Gap agreement with priority one reform, which is the engagement of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander sector, in the way decisions are made. So, they are now at the table with this, which had not happened before.

So, this now means, in terms of the reports I receive, it won't just be from the Northern Territory Government, it will also be from those other parties who are at the table. And this makes a huge difference. : Would that have an impact on child protection? Because that of course has been something which you have spoken out in recent times.

Now the NTRAI funding, as far as I know, I'm not sure how that relates to child protection. But could that be used if you continue to be unhappy with NT Government performance on that front? : It still covers right across the broad spectrum of children and families. So, the NTRAI does cover, it covers policing, it covers housing, education, children and families.

So, it is a major agreement that the Commonwealth has signed with the Northern Territory and the Aboriginal peak organisations. : And if the NTG don't perform, what do you do? How much money, do you cut money out of their NTRAI funding? : Well, it will depend on what the reports are that come back to me. : But it is. That would be the penalty? : Well, it would certainly be a possibility.

That's right. : Can I just turn to your Labor colleague and Member for Solomon Luke Gosling. He was charged yesterday with two counts of assault on the Administrator, was bailed to appear before Darwin local court on September 1. He has strenuously denied the charges.

What was your reaction when you heard that news? : I was certainly very, very upset, really, to be honest, Stew. I've worked beside Luke for 10 years and find him to be a really good and decent person who really does reflect and represent his constituents with absolute commitment. : Should he be stood down? Should the PM stand him down? : It's a conversation for Luke and the Prime Minister, but one of the things I just want to point out to your listeners is that it was important to also keep in mind Luke's family and his staff.

They were my priority yesterday, reaching out to them. It's not an easy time. It's very difficult.

But there is a legal process underway now and I will be respectful of that. : True. But should the PM strip him of his Special Envoy status? He is the Special Envoy for Defence, Veterans Affairs and Northern Australia.

Should he be stripped of those, as the opposition have been calling for? : Look, this is a conversation for Luke and the Prime Minister, Stewart, and that's all I'll say on the matter. I am very mindful that this is a very difficult time for his family and his staff and a lot of people, actually. : How damaging to Labor, both federally, but here in the NT are these sort of things?

Is this allegation? : Oh, look, it's certainly not good, Stewart, but we don't know what actually happened. I don't know what happened. You don't know what happened.

And that's why there is a legal process underway. And I would suggest to all people looking at this to be very careful. There is a court case expected to be underway and let's wait and see what comes of that. : One last question.

You’re just about to jump on the plane to Garma. The PM is not at Garma. Does that show the PM has downgraded his attention and his interest in Indigenous affairs by not going to Garma, which is normally seen as a showcase and where policy is nutted out and spoken about. : Well, I'm certainly going to Garma and looking forward to it and it was great to have the Prime Minister here on the Tiwi Islands the other weekend. : But are you disappointed he won't be going to Gama?

And does this show his lack of interest? : No, not at all. The Prime Minister, like many people, needs to have some time out too. We've certainly got lots of Ministers going.

It's fantastic to have the Foreign Affairs Minister, Penny Wong, coming. We'll have Michelle Rowland, Tanya Plibersek, Jason Clare in Education. I'm very pleased. : NT Senator and Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy, speaking to me earlier this morning.

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