Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC Afternoon Briefing

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: In breaking news this afternoon, the commissioning of an independent review into the Bureau of Meteorology. It follows an unpopular website revamp last year which sparked a major backlash. Murray Watt is the Environment Minister and joins me now.

Murray Watt, welcome to the program. MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: Hi, Patricia. Good to be with you.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: What's wrong at the BOM to require an independent review? MURRAY WATT: Well, I think it's always a good idea for government agencies to look at their performance about the services that they're delivering to the Australian public. We know that the Bureau of Meteorology is a particularly respected and valued organisation relied upon by Australian citizens and industries for weather forecasting and there are very important decisions made on the basis of those forecasts.

The BOM is in the process of developing its future strategy and it’s decided to commission this review to look at the kind of service offerings that it's making available to Australians - how Australians’ needs are changing and how the BOM might need to adapt to it. But also of course, looking at how the BOM does communicate with the broader public and, indeed, with its stakeholders - whether that be farming organisations, the aviation industry, the energy industry.

There's all sorts of industries that rely on accurate, timely forecasting, just as we do as citizens. So, I think it’s a healthy thing that the BOM has decided to initiate this review. PATRICIA KARVELAS: It appears the review doesn't look at BOM failings though.

Why not? MURRAY WATT: Well, I'm sure that the reviewers will look at what the BOM has been doing and what could be improved going forward. This is not a review just of what happened around the website, I think it's well understood, and I expressed my views at the time, about the management of that rollout of that website.

This is a much broader review than just looking at any one particular incident or website. This is about how we can set the BOM up for future success, make sure that it is meeting the needs of Australians. Just like many other industries, we're seeing meteorology impacted by artificial intelligence and new technology, we need to see how the BOM can make use of that.

But also of course, we know that issues around climate and weather have become part of a very polarised political debate. There is a lot of misinformation and disinformation circulating around the world and around Australia about climate and weather, and it's important that the BOM is built for that kind of environment that it is needing to operate in. PATRICIA KARVELAS: Sure.

So just to be clear, you say it’ll be wider but is your understanding that it will be also looking at the debacle around the actual website as well - is that part of this? MURRAY WATT: I'm sure that the reviewers will have a look at what happened around the website and how that was communicated to the Australian public. But I do want to make clear that this is not a review of what happened around the website, it's a much broader review than that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: It's not really independent though, it's run by the BOM with your Department. How can we be sure that it will be, you know, frank and fearless about what the BOM needs to do? MURRAY WATT: Well, certainly the CEO of the BOM has commissioned this review and, as the relevant minister I certainly support that decision.

But it is an independent review, it’s being led by a retired public servant, Phillip Glyde – a highly respected former public servant whose roles have included being the Chief Executive of the Murray Darling Basin Association. And I know that organisation, among many, has relied on weather forecasting and meteorological advice from the BOM so I think he is well placed to lead that review.

It will be supported by people from my Department, but also other external advice that is being brought in particularly involving people with public policy and crisis communications experience because that is the kind of environment that the BOM operates in. PATRICIA KARVELAS: And were you- did you ask for the review? Did they inform you?

Can you just tell me about the process in terms of the Government's instigation of this as well? MURRAY WATT: Yeah. So, as you may be aware, a new CEO started at the BOM towards the end of last year, and he's been doing a great amount of work ever since taking on that role in thinking about what sort of bureau we need moving forward and what needs to change at that organisation.

He and I did have some discussions and have been talking about this for some time about the kind of organisation that Australians expect, what kind of communication Australians expect through disaster season and through the usual activities of the BOM. So, his decision to hold this review certainly has my full support. PATRICIA KARVELAS: And it's not going to report till 2027.

That means it misses potentially our most dangerous period which is our bushfire season. Shouldn't it be doing its work and making changes before that? MURRAY WATT: Well, we certainly didn't want to rush the review in the sense of forcing it, and the BOM CEO didn't want to force the review to report back within a very short amount of period of time because this is a pretty extensive series of issues that it needs to be looked at.

But I've had one preliminary discussion with the independent reviewer and I've said to him that, you know, if there are opportunities for early recommendations that can be taken up, even heading into this high risk weather season, then they should put those sort of things forward. The BOM is always evolving what it does, and if good ideas come to light that can be implemented quickly we should do that.

But equally, we didn't want to constrain the BOM by making that review too short, so that's why it will be reporting back by the end of March next year. PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. Just on a couple of other issues - bird flu, of course.

You have warned about just how disturbing this could be. Do you have modelling on the most nightmare scenario? MURRAY WATT: Look, I wouldn't put it that way, that there's not exactly modelling that I'm aware of that paints that sort of picture.

But we certainly know that, based on the overseas experience, this is likely to get much worse, and we've been very frank about that. Julie Collins, as the lead minister for the Government, was out within hours of the first detection on Australian soil, and we've been trying to make sure that people are informed as quickly as possible. As I say, the overseas experience does indicate that we are likely to see very large numbers deaths of birds and even mammals moving forward - PATRICIA KARVELAS: Yeah.

Wouldn't your Department be actually modelling the extent to which we could see fatalities, particularly as you say of mammals, in the coming weeks and months? MURRAY WATT: What they certainly have done is some work around identifying the most at-risk species, and those that we should be taking the most action around, and that work that they've undertaken will be made public very soon.

But as I've said previously, PK, there's been a lot of work already done well before it got to Australian soil to identify those species most at risk, and that's what's informed a lot of our investments. I think it's around $47 million that we've invested in building up the resilience of native species. We know we can't stop bird flu getting to Australia or getting around Australia, but what we can be doing is preserving the populations of some of those most critically endangered species so that if some of them do get lost as a result of bird flu, we still have a viable population to rebuild after that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. Did we miss the boat when it comes to vaccination efforts to help prevent this, especially for some of our most endangered species? MURRAY WATT: No, I don't think so, PK.

And as I've said before, the fact that we are the last continent in the world that has had bird flu come to our shores has given us more time to work with states and territories, veterinary organisations, communities, industry around preparedness. And that's why we feel confident that we are as well prepared as we possibly could be. The comments that I've seen from environment groups and bird groups and others recognise that.

In terms of vaccination, it’s not a straightforward exercise. I mean, for starters, it's simply not feasible to be vaccinating birds in the wildlife. You need two doses of that vaccine.

So even if we were to catch a bird and vaccinate it once, the chances of catching that bird again for a second injection or vaccination are pretty low. There are trials that we have been conducting in participation with industry, particularly around vaccination of poultry. And it is possible that we could look at some vaccinations of threatened species in captivity, but I wouldn't want to pretend that vaccination is a silver bullet here.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: How about our pets? I know that there's been talk about cats and dogs. A lot of people are worried about their pets.

Should they be? MURRAY WATT: Look, again, based on the international experience, it is possible for bird flu to be transmitted to dogs and cats. And of course, household chooks is something that we need to be wary of as well.

What we've been saying to people, and more information is available on the birdflu.gov.au website, but what we've been saying to people is that it is a good idea to keep your household pets on leashes. It should be noted that the risk of transmission is very low, but it is still possible. My advice to pet owners always, as the Environment Minister, is to do what you can to keep your pets away from native wildlife.

We already see too many birds in particular, but other animals are preyed upon by domestic cats, so keep them away, and this is another reason, where possible, to keep your pets indoors, and if you do have household chooks, then really upgrade your sort of biosecurity protections even in your backyard as well. PATRICIA KARVELAS: Now, you're a former workplace relations minister.

There's a big story that Qantas is joining forces with consulting giant Accenture to outsource a thousand jobs to India. This is all part of its AI drive. We keep getting told that AI, including by your Government, will be good, but isn’t this the kind of mass job loss scenario that people have been fearing MURRAY WATT: Well, we certainly recognise as a Government that the introduction of any new technology, including AI, often has impacts on the existing workforce.

We've seen that for time immemorial as new technology gets introduced. What's important is that employers who are adopting that kind of technology do consult their workforces about the introduction of that new technology. We think that workers and unions do have a right to be involved in those kind of discussions, not with a view to stopping new technology coming in but really thinking about how that technology impacts on workforce and how that can be adjusted.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Does it worry you to hear this about Qantas? This is our Premier airline in this country. That's a lot of Australian jobs.

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, look, as I say, we recognise that the introduction of AI, like other technologies, is likely to have a big impact on some parts of the workforce. Equally, we should acknowledge that AI can enhance the work that people do and will create new jobs as well. I don't want to be flippant about it because obviously, if you're a Qantas worker who's going to be affected by this, of course, you're going to be concerned.

And that's why, again, we need to make sure that we do manage these sorts of changes. It's why the Prime Minister made that speech recently about how we approach the regulation of AI moving forward, whether that be data centres or more generally. We want to be ahead of the curve rather than have to come to this once too much damage is done.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Just finally on One Nation, what does it say that, in Victoria, One Nation hasn't announced all their candidates for the Lower House, they won't release their policies for weeks, yet they are polling higher than State Labor? And if you look at the federal, in some polls, and if you look at the federal polling as well, the Redbridge one the other day, they're above Labor again.

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, look, I mean, as I've said more generally about One Nation, I think that those sort of numbers, whether it be in Victoria or nationally, reflect that there is a lot of frustration in the Australian community at the moment. We recognise as a Government that people are feeling a lot of pressure around cost of living. That's why we're so focused on delivering cost of living relief for Australians that I have to say One Nation has always opposed, has always voted with the Liberal Party to oppose that cost of living relief that we and other governments have provided.

I think what’s going to be interesting in the run up to the Victorian election is that One Nation, at some point, are going to have to come forward to the Victorian people with what their plan for the future is. It's one thing to just hack on a government or hack on other parties, but you've actually got to be able to put forward positive ideas for what they're going to offer to Victorians just as they will need to do federally.

And importantly, One Nation are going to find themselves in the uncomfortable space for them of having to answer questions. We saw Pauline Hanson and One Nation figures refusing to admit some media outlets to their press conferences. It just makes you wonder what it is that they've got to hide that they're not prepared to answer questions, and I think the Victorian people deserve those answers before polling day.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Thank you so much for joining us, Minister. MURRAY WATT: Thanks, PK. We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture.

We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.