Interview with Sally Sara, ABC Radio National Breakfast

now. Minister, welcome back to Breakfast. MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE AND ENERGY, CHRIS BOWEN: Always a pleasure, Sally.

Good morning. Is the government still trying to reach an agreement on the national standards for data centres at the next National Cabinet meeting this month? Or have you given up on getting the Queensland and NT governments on board?

MINISTER BOWEN: Well, the Prime Minister is convening the National Cabinet to discuss data centres broadly. That is absolutely the case, but it's also the case that we've been progressing these energy reforms as part of that process. As you indicated, Sally, last week I chaired the Energy Minister's meeting, which is a very regular occurrence.

The majority of states and territories agreed that we need to do this, but Queensland and the Northern Territory did not. But we've made clear that this is a national approach and we will use national legislation because these data centres, while the investment is very welcome and Australia has one of the biggest and hottest data centre markets in the world for investment, that's something we welcome, providing it's in our national interest.

And in our national interest is that the data centres work within the constraints and the rules that the governments of Australia wish to place on them to bring their own new additional renewable energy backed by sensible affirming arrangements. Otherwise, a let-her-rip approach, which my shadow minister was advocating on your program just a little while ago, let her rip - let them do whatever they want approach, would see bills go up, reliability go down, and data centres dominate the energy system in a way which is not in the national interest.

So even if Northern Territory and Queensland don't get on board, you'll use federal laws to go over the top of that and ensure national standards? Is there anything the states can do to undo that? MINISTER BOWEN: Essentially, that's correct.

Now, I always prefer to work with my state and territory colleagues, always have - had excellent relations with Coalition ministers at the state level in New South Wales and Tasmania, for example. And where a state or territory says, look, we agree with most of what you're trying to do here, but we'd rather do it this way, I'll always try and find a way to accommodate and find consensus, and that's always been my approach.

But what we're not going to do is let one state or one territory dictate to the rest of the Commonwealth or the other states, indeed, and the other states were very strong in their views supporting the Commonwealth, that their way is going to be the lowest common denominator. I don't think that's an appropriate outcome for Queenslanders. It's not in the best interest of Queenslanders to see their bills go up or their reliability go down as a result of data centres coming in, nor is it in the best interest of the country.

Will the data centre renewables requirement mean higher energy prices for consumers? MINISTER BOWEN: Not if we get these national policy settings right, no. But I think that is the risk if it's a laissez-faire.

SARA: Can you guarantee that? MINISTER BOWEN: Yeah, well, that's because if we require them to bring on their own additional renewable energy backed by firming arrangements, that ensures reliability of the grid and ensures more of the cheapest form of energy. So, yes, obviously that is the best outcome.

But if you just say let it rip, as I said, as the Liberal Party is advocating, including on your show this morning, just let them do whatever they want, I think that does have the risk of increased bills and reduced reliability. The Shadow Energy Minister, Dan Tehan, as you say, was on AM this morning. He told Mel Clarke that Australia should be, quote, technology agnostic.

Let's take a listen.[Excerpt] SHADOW ENERGY MINISTER DAN TEHAN: Take the Northern Territory. The Beetaloo Basin, an incredibly important gas resource for this nation. Now, there are data centres that want to invest in in the Northern Territory.

There's an optic fibre line that they can hook in there. Why can't they use the gas in that resource, use some solar from some cable, and then, if they want to, offset their emissions by carbon capture and storage off the coast of Darwin? They should have the flexibility to decide how they go about their energy mix. [End of excerpt] Does Dan Tehan have a point there?

Are you being too prescriptive? MINISTER BOWEN: Look, I think there's a fundamental difference of approach. He and the Liberal Party says data centres should be able in Australia to make their own rules and to do whatever they want when it comes to their energy needs.

Now, this is a big issue for the country. Data centres currently use 2 per cent of our electricity. It's estimated to be 6 per cent by 2030.

Now, 6 per cent might not sound like much. In one sense, I understand that. But 6 per cent is equivalent to all the homes in Victoria.

Or take one data centre that's proposed in my own electorate, about 15 minutes from where I live, that would have energy use slightly higher than the Tomago aluminium smelter, which is currently New South Wales' largest electricity user. Now, the Queensland Northern Territory Federal Liberal approach would just say, do whatever you want. Do whatever you want.

And we don't care what impact it has on bills or reliability. I think there's a fundamental difference of view there between the Commonwealth, the Albanese Government, and every other state and territory who say, no, what we need to do is make sure that there's investments and the investment's welcome. That's a good thing.

And we want to be part of the AI supply chain and data centres. And absolutely, that's important for Australia's economic resilience. But so it is also important that- act in a national interest.

Now, energy is my part of it. Energy is the part I'm responsible for. Murray Watt's got a similar process underway for water use, for example.

I'll leave him to comment on the details. But a similar approach is being coordinated by the Prime Minister with the support of Assistant Minister Charlton, in particular, and Minister Ayres, is in our national interest. And I don't think it should be controversial, Sally, to say this investment should occur. if it is in the interest of Australia and Australians, and we can put rules in place to ensure it's in our national interest.

Now, again, I understand and respect there's a fundamental difference of view. Others say, no, let them do whatever they want. [Indistinct] investment at all costs. That's just not our view.

You're listening to Radio National Breakfast and you're hearing from the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Chris Bowen. At the National Press Club yesterday, you were asked about your Cabinet colleague, Tony Burke's decision to postpone his own press club address on migration. You're in the Cabinet.

You're also a former minister of immigration. Can you explain the broad principles behind the migration package that the Home Affairs Minister is preparing? MINISTER BOWEN: I'm not going to announce what Tony is working on.

He's all across the challenges and the opportunities here, of course. Tony's doing an absolutely fantastic job of ensuring, again, that our immigration program which is so vital for us economically, vital for our vibrancy, is one of the- I would argue, the world's most successful multicultural nation. But it must be properly calibrated.

And as you say, I'm a former minister. I do understand the complexities here, the difficulties, the bluntness of some of the levers. Tony has been working through those issues.

He's been doing that very, very well. He'll continue that process and he'll have more to say. The Coalition, Greens and crossbenchers have all said they are unwilling to pass the government's gambling bill through the Senate in its current form.

Will the government consider walking away if it can't get what it wants? MINISTER BOWEN: Well, I'll just say this, Sally. This is the biggest anti-gambling or gambling moderation program in Australian history.

We've already done so much. We do have ambitions to do more, as Minister Wells has outlined. Now, it's not unusual, frankly, at this point, for parties that aren't the government to say they're not supporting this legislation and for there to be speculation the legislation will fail.

Our track record as a government of getting legislation through the Senate, despite the fact we don't have a majority there, is pretty good. It's pretty good. Sounds like you're going to hang in there.

MINISTER BOWEN: Well, look, I'll leave Minister Wells to handle the negotiations. I'm just making the point that it is not unusual at this point for this speculation to be around. Obviously, we work with parties of goodwill and good faith across the parliament to see our legislation through.

We then make an assessment about whether to proceed or not. That will be the same process here. Chris Bowen, thank you for joining me this morning.

MINISTER BOWEN: Always a pleasure, Sally. Have a great day. Thank you.

Chris Bowen, Minister for Climate Change and Energy. We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture. We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.