Interview - ABC Breakfast

JAMES GLENDAY: Well, it is time to talk federal politics now, and as we mentioned a little earlier this hour there is a lot of debate in Canberra at the moment about gambling legislation as the Government and Opposition work towards a deal. We invited the responsible Minister Annika Wells on the show, and she declined, and so did the Opposition Leader Angus Taylor, but the Education Minister Jason Clare is out and about in the ACT this morning, and he joins us from near an early learning centre.

Minister, welcome to our show. JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: G'day, James, good to be here. Thank you for your time.

Now your Government appears to be working towards an opt‑out model on sports betting, where people have to say, "No, no, no, I don't want to see betting ads on my apps". Can you understand why some people, even in your own party, want an opt‑in model where the default position is no ads? Well, I think people want to see action, and that's what we're doing with the legislation that's in the Parliament now.

No government's taken as much action as we have on gambling advertising or gambling harm. The legislation that's in the Parliament takes the next step there. I'm not ‑ you've got to forgive me, mate, I'm not the Minister for Communications so I'm not part of those negotiations and I don't have any detail on what's in and what's out, but I do read what you've read on the ABC website this morning, that there's constructive discussions going on between the Government and the Opposition and that strikes me as a good thing.

Look, we're not going to grill you on the detail, but we've had a lot of people on this show basically saying now's the time to pull your finger out. If you're going to be brave on an issue, this is the one to do it, this is the one where a lot of people across the political spectrum are worried about the now co‑existence of gambling and sport. Do you think there's going to be a backlash if you go too hard?

Do you think a media outlet will fall over without this gambling cash? What is holding the Government back from taking tougher action here? Oh, well, you know, I think we are taking tough action.

Aussies have got a right to have a punt, but you don't want it to get to the point where it means people go bankrupt and it ends up in families breaking up, right? So, the legislation that's in the Parliament is all about trying to make sure that, you know, when kids are in the car on the way to school, they're not, you know, pummelled with gambling advertising, or when kids are watching the TV and watching sport, they don't see those ads either.

But respect the right that adults are adults as well. Now, the fact that we're hearing that the Opposition are talking constructively to the Government about the legislation, you know, that doesn't happen all the time. You know, I'm going to introduce a bill into the Parliament in just over an hour to lock in a pay rise for child care workers.

The Liberals and One Nation both seem to think that's a bad idea. If the Liberals are willing to talk to the Government on the gambling reforms that we're implementing and be constructive here, I think most Australians watching would say well that's a welcome thing. That's the context of why you're at an early childhood centre.

Thank you for mentioning that. Just one last one, if you don't want kids to see gambling ads, why not ban them altogether? That's the easiest way to make sure that it doesn't happen, right?

Well, I think the thing that you need to do is make sure that you're acting where kids are likely to hear it or see it, and that's what that legislation does. Okay. Now, you've thrown your support behind a push to limit screen time in classrooms.

Is this sort of a broader vibe-based thing that fewer screens would be good, or are you actually going to work with the States to make some serious changes here? Well, some States are already acting. In Victoria where you are, from next year they'll limit the amount of screen time that kids have at primary school from Years 3 to 6 to about 90 minutes a day, in high school to two hours, and I think that there's a lot of evidence coming in that tells us that that's a good thing, that we do need to set those screen limits, a bit of a digital detox, if you like.

You know, when you and I were at school, there was one room at the school where the computers were, now they're everywhere, at home and in every class. There's a bit of evidence that shows that the more time kids are spending on screens, the more their results go south. There's also a fair bit of evidence that tells us that when children write something down with a pen and paper that they absorb it more into their long‑term memory than if they're typing it, and I've got to say in the last few days since I've been talking about this, I've been inundated with messages of support from parents, but also at schools I visited, teachers coming up to me saying, "this is the way to go".

And so Ministers have asked for advice from officials about whether with next year's NAPLAN test we should make the writing test with pen and paper rather than typing it out, but also to have a look at this issue of screen time, whether there's too much of it, and even more broadly than that, to have a look at the way artificial intelligence is being used and should be used in our schools.

The New South Wales Government has just announced that for students doing the HSC that they're no longer going to do take home assessments because the risk is there that students will just put that into Claude or ChatGPT instead of doing the work themselves. So, everything's changing. We've got to look at the evidence and adapt.

Just on this, I'm sure you've had teachers say, "look, this would be great, I'd love to have less screen time, but to do that we need more resources, we need more money". In Victoria, teachers have been striking, asking for more pay, but also a better school funding deal. Have you reached a deal yet with the new Premier Ben Carroll around school funding?

Look, we're very close, mate. I know Ben Carroll gets this and I'm optimistic that we'll get this across the line. He understands how important it is that teachers are paid well, that they do the best or they do the most important job in the country, but how important it is that we fix the funding of our schools.

We've struck agreements now, 10-year agreements with every State and Territory across the country, except Victoria, very close to landing that deal. But I should make the point, mate, that it's not just about money, it's what we invest that money in. Things like teaching kids to read using phonics when they're little, teaching them to break up words into sounds so that kids actually learn to read and write, all kids, not just some.

And if kids fall behind, that we get them into small groups and they can catch up. You learn as much in six months in a small group as you would in a normal classroom of 30 in 12 months. That's what this funding can help to fund.

A lot of that is already happening in Victoria. This agreement will help to extend that. And the NAPLAN results that came out last week show us that in the schools that are doing this now, their results are going up.

So that's why this is important. Sorry to jump in. Sorry to jump in, Minister, we're going to run out of time.

Just very briefly, should teachers in Victoria be stopping their strike given that you say you're so close to this deal? Well, I don't think mums and dads will want to see a strike. They want to see their kids going to school learning, and I want to see teachers paid well.

I think this deal that's on the table will make Victorian teachers the best paid teachers in the country. And so, look, I'm optimistic on two things. That pay dispute will get resolved in a way that makes sure that Victorian teachers get paid what they deserve, but also that will fix the funding of our public schools in Victoria and right across the country.

Just before I let you go, Minister, a bit of a personal question. Are pop culture podcasts more trouble than they're actually worth, given all of this media coverage that we've seen in recent days, and recent months actually, about shagging Kylie Minogue, Japanese melons, and now this call for an AFP investigation, are they worth the hassle? I, you know, I kind of think you've got to talk to people where they are.

There's a lot of people that'll be watching the telly now that will turn it off in a minute and get in the car, take their kids to school or go to work and, you know, my bet is that instead of listening to a radio station they'll put on a podcast. So, you've got to talk to people where they are, whether that's on the telly talking to yourself, or whether it's talking on podcasts or anywhere else.

I'm guessing you wouldn't be taking part in some of these games though. Oh, I reckon, you know, probably a harder interview talking to you than being on a podcast. Oh, there you go.

Well, we appreciate you joining us. Thank you very much for joining us there from an early childhood education centre in Canberra. Good on you, mate, appreciate it.

There you go.