Interview - ABC News Breakfast

JAMES GLENDAY: The Federal Government wants major changes to how maths is taught in primary schools after international figures revealed that maths and reading at high school have now hit their lowest point on record. The Federal Education Minister is Jason Clare, and he joins us now from Canberra. Jason, welcome back to our program.

JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: Thanks mate, great to be here. This is now a 20-year decline. I'll get your view on what you're going to do to change this in a moment, but I'm just really curious, why do you think this is happening?

Oh, I think you can draw a line between this and the ubiquitousness of technology. If you think about this, this is a test for 15-year-olds for 91 countries around the world. We're seeing the same sort of trends in most countries in their results today as well.

I think the common factor is the way in which our kids interact with technology, both at home and at school. The PISA results are telling us that the children that are online more are getting lower results. So is that because they're ‑‑ The more you're online, the more your results decline.

Yeah. So, is that because, what, they're just not able to pay attention like they used to, is it because they're too easily distracted, or is it something with the actual use of screens in teaching methods? I think it's all of that.

The experts call this cognitive stunting, that technology can be used as a crutch in the classroom or it also can be a distraction. We've taken mobile phones, personal phones out of schools but you go into the average classroom today and you'll see tablets and laptops on every desk in every classroom. That's a bit different to 20 years ago or, you know, 30 or 40 years ago when we were there and you'd have just a computer room at the school.

And the evidence is telling us that we probably need a good digital detox in our schools. It doesn't mean that there's no place for technology. Our kids need to learn digital skills, and that includes AI, they need to know how to use it and how not to use it.

But if it's everywhere, then it's having negative impacts on our kids. We're already spending more in education, I'm sure you're going to mention that, but what do you think is the answer then to turning it around, because the money at least so far doesn't appear to be putting this trend in the right direction? Well, I think we should have a look at what's happening in the UK, because they're the country that are bucking the trend.

They've jumped three spots in the world rankings in reading today, four spots in maths and seven spots in science, and 10 or 15 years ago they made big changes to their education system and that includes the implementation of phonics, you know, teaching kids to read when they're little by breaking words into sounds, and big changes to their curriculum. Now they're the things that we're doing in Australia right now, the things that we should have done 10 years ago but we're doing now.

And in the schools that have been doing that in Australia for a little while, I mentioned one of those in Campbelltown in Western Sydney yesterday in Parliament, we're seeing the same things that are happening in the UK. There was a phonics check done at this school three years ago and only 22 per cent of the kids in Year 1 were at the standard that was expected for them with their reading.

They did the same test last year and it was 84 per cent. So the reading wars are over. We know what works to teach kids to read; it's phonics.

And we need to continue to roll that out across the country. But not just that, we also need to reform our curriculum, and I think we need to start with maths, mathematics. Maths is sequential.

If you don't learn it in the right order, and if you don't get the basics right at the start, you can fall behind and never catch up. And when Ministers next meet, we'll receive and consider recommendations about how we reform the maths curriculum. But if you're asking me, what do we need to do, have a look at what the UK have done.

They show that reform is hard and it takes time but it's not impossible to shift the dial if you drive those reforms. Some of those reforms do cost money, James. And we've been talking about funding forever, since I was a kid.

This is the Government that is finally fixing the funding of our public schools. It means an extra $20 billion dollars over the next 10 years - Well on that, if I can just jump in there. Public schools educate the most disadvantaged people, and the most disadvantaged kids in our society ‑ You bet they do. ‑ to a large extent, and the gap in this between private and public schools is substantial.

It might be hard to ever entirely close that gap, but can you make it smaller? Because I think a lot of people going to public schools at the moment would look at that and go, "gee, that's a substantial difference". Yeah.

I'm a product of public education and damn proud of it, and I know that it's public schools that do the heavy lifting that help the most disadvantaged kids get the opportunities in life. You know, I was one of those kids once upon a time. I'm the first child in my family to finish Year 10.

It's education that gave me all the opportunities that I have in life and that my children will have in life. It doesn't just change the lives of individuals. It changes the lives of their families as well.

No government has ever fixed this before. This Government is now fixing it, fixing the funding of our schools, but it's important that money is not a blank cheque, but it's tied to the sort of reforms that we know work to help teach children to read and to write, to help more children finish high school. You're right to say that no country has closed this gap entirely, but countries with good education systems can bend it and we're seeing some of that in the UK with their reforms.

The same reforms I'm implementing now in Australia. The truth is this should have happened in Australia 10 years ago, but it's happening now and I'm determined to continue to roll it out. Bending the gap, not closing it.

Just on tech, your Government's pushing ahead with plan to allow people to opt out from their social media algorithms. Is there a risk here the tech companies make the non‑algorithm version of their app so clunky that nobody wants to use it? We've seen similar things happen overseas.

I think we've got big challenges here, and again there's a link between what we just talked about with technology and how it's affecting our kids in schools and just how it's affecting them in their life. If you look at research about what young men think of women, it's more backwards today than the views of men in their forties or fifties. You know, young men in their twenties that are saying that, you know, the husband should control the wife, that the wife should obey the husband, you know, the man makes all the rules.

So just to use that as an example, Jason ‑ Now why is that happening? Are those people going to opt out of an algorithm though? Would it be better to do what the Greens are saying and make this an opt-in to the algorithm if you really want it?

I don't think we've made any final decision about whether it's opt out or opt in, but you know, there was a story in the Herald the other day, a young female journalist pretended to be a 17‑year‑old boy on TikTok, within 17 minutes she was being sent videos telling her what to think about women, demeaning things about girls. Now it's algorithms that are sending that information.

The average 17‑year‑old is spending 14 hours a week online being force‑fed all this crap. We've got to do something about it. You've got the Liberal Party today saying they're going to fight this.

You know, they are more extreme than when Peter Dutton was leading them if they think that they should be fighting this rather than working with us, as Peter Dutton did. We've got to protect our kids, and we've got to help mums and dads that are grappling with all of this at the moment, and that's what these reforms are about. Yeah, so there are a few people within the Coalition who are sort of broadly supportive.

Let's see where they end up landing. Geez I hope they win, mate. I hope they win because I saw one of them on TV last night, you know, that was out saying, "we've got to fight this".

That is the wrong approach. Yeah, that is true, some saying that. Just before I let you go, the Prime Minister's going to join us in about an hour.

The ABC has a story today that he didn't declare that he was an honorary member ‑ had an honorary membership of a golf club in his electorate. That golf club got a grant through a fund that heavily favoured Labor seats. What's going on?

You were involved pretty heavily in the election campaign. Has the Prime Minister done the wrong thing? No, I don't think there's a requirement under the rules to declare those sorts of things.

Should there be though? I think there's a bit ‑ well, I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding here, mate. You know, in elections members of Parliament, candidates running for election make promises.

If you win, if you form government then you fund those promises and that's what this is. He set up a fund to do that. I mean it looks like pork barrelling though.

I mean Labor seats, marginal seats, heavily favoured with grants program. I mean we've seen this story before. Hang on a sec.

I think there is a big difference between what you promise in an election and delivering it, that's democracy. That's what people expect if you knock on their door and say, "I'll do this down the road" that you do it if you win, and if you're in Government and you set up a fund. So, for example, in my portfolio in education where we fund infrastructure in schools, you set up a program and then schools can apply or states can apply.

That's what you do in government. But if you're in an election campaign and you make a promise as a local member, people expect that you'll deliver on it and that's what this fund does. Is that how you fend off independents, minor parties now?

You go electorate by electorate making these small promises about security cameras, netball courts, things like that, is that how you win seats? I don't think that's new. You know, I think this is probably as old as Ancient Greece.

You know, all politics is local. You know, good politicians know that you don't necessarily win elections by, you know, having a chat on the telly. You do it by having a chat at the front door of people's homes and meeting people where they are.

Well, we appreciate you having a chat on the telly with us. Thanks mate. Jason Clare, thank you for joining us.