Interview with Patricia Karvelas, ABC Afternoon Briefing

PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: For more on the government's plan, I want to bring in the Energy Minister, Chris Bowen. Welcome. MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE AND ENERGY, CHRIS BOWEN: Good to be here, PK.

You've watered down the original commitment from a hard 20 per cent to up to a fifth. Why? MINISTER BOWEN: Well, I wouldn't share the characterisation.

What we've done is we've said as we would, that we would consult on the details. What we've said today, is a very comprehensive, complex policy. Dan Tehan’s right to say it's a complicated policy debate.

What we've said is, up to 20 per cent we'll have the AER assess demand on a five-year rolling period – the Australian Energy Regulator assess what the gas demand will be and assess what a modest oversupply will be. And then within that 20 per cent, that's what the requirement will be on gas companies. Because we always said we wanted a modest oversupply.

We listened to some feedback to say, well, be careful you don't massively oversupply, that's in no one's best interest for a whole bunch of reasons – a very sensible way of implementing what we said we would implement. Okay. The other change is that it's going to take a year longer until it starts.

Why delay it? MINISTER BOWEN: Well, because it really aligns contract negotiations better. It starts quite soon, but we are going to give a transition period.

We've already said we'd – don't think you can get around it by entering into contracts now, that's not a possibility. It's just it is a pretty big, complicated, fundamental change so we're giving people time to factor it in. The Greens have been arguing the decision to make the threshold 'up to' is to appease gas corporations – that this has been driven by them, that they're writing these laws.

MINISTER BOWEN: Well I can assure you, gas companies don't think they've written these laws. Gas companies aren't happy. Gas companies would prefer nothing.

But look, we've engaged with companies in good faith. You know, APLNG, for example, have said, look, here's some things which we think are sensible. A good government consults with the industry, with the unions, across the board with trading partners – we've done that, no apologies, absolutely no apologies for consulting broadly.

And you said you meant – you'd consulted with allies. What were their main concerns? MINISTER BOWEN: No secret there.

You know, there are a lot of countries which rely on Australia's gas exports – Malaysia, Japan, Singapore and others. They were concerned to ensure that – what we had said all the way through – that existing contracts would be honoured, was, you know, very clear and unquestionable. I think, you know, we can expect that they will welcome the package we put out today.

Okay. And when this was announced – I think I asked you, I'm sure lots of people did – how much you expect this will reduce gas bills. That's the point of it… MINISTER BOWEN: …so that we have it – you know, we've got more here, we're not running out, and that we have some price relief.

You said it was downward pressure. MINISTER BOWEN: Can you now that you've actually gone through the design process, how much? MINISTER BOWEN: Well, it's not a gas cap in terms of pricing, it's not a target, it's not a floor, not a ceiling, to be very clear.

It's about supply. Obviously, modest oversupply puts downward pressure on prices. Does that also mean modest downward pressure?

MINISTER BOWEN: Well, to a certain degree once you're oversupplying, the price is only going to come down so much. But modest oversupply is what gives us the best chance of getting that gas price which industry have told us they need. The Santos Chief Executive yesterday told the Press Club the East Coast cannot afford another decade without major new gas developments.

Do you agree with that? MINISTER BOWEN: I certainly agree, PK, that – and I'm not really agreeing, it's stating facts as I've done for many years now – the Bass Strait is running out of gas. I don't think quite the Australian debate has caught up with just how quickly the Bass Strait gas fields are depleting.

We're getting a lot less gas out of there and they won't go on forever. We've been getting gas out of there since the 1950’s, it's a finite resource. We still need gas, though, for heavy industry, for the homes – five million homes that use it for gas heating – and to some degree, for electricity.

Gas-fired power stations aren't turned on very much, but when they're turned on you need gas. So that gas from the Bass Strait needs to be replaced – that is a fact. So, that's why this whole debate about no new gas sometimes gets lost.

You do need to keep the gas supply up. Gas use is falling dramatically, I think that's a good thing. We have the lowest gas use in our energy system in 26 years.

Why? Batteries. Batteries is driving gas out of the energy system, but it's not disappearing.

So, moratoriums, bans on onshore gas development, those things need to be re-looked at? MINISTER BOWEN: Well, it's a matter for states, ultimately. But – But, you know, you can a view.

You've got views on what [indistinct]… MINISTER BOWEN: Well, I've said that the gas from the Bass Strait needs to be replaced, and it does. So we do need East Coast development, we need to do that on gas? MINISTER BOWEN: We need to replace the gas from the Bass Strait in Australia, yes.

On the East Coast? MINISTER BOWEN : Well, that's up to the market to determine what gets extracted and how it gets moved around. I have to ask you, and there's a lot of Senate movements going on, three Green Senators are going to cross the floor.

MINISTER BOWEN: Have crossed the floor. You might have missed earlier. Have already, thank you.

MINISTER BOWEN: It's just happened, yep. Thank you. Breaking news.

MINISTER BOWEN: Breaking news. Breaking news, yes. I knew they were going to, now it's happened, to vote with the Nationals to kill off that carbon credit method for forest protection.

MINISTER BOWEN: You had a deal with the Greens. MINISTER BOWEN Do you still have the numbers to get it through? MINISTER BOWEN: It's passed.

It’s passed? MINISTER BOWEN: The Government's position has passed, 34 to 27. So, what does it mean in terms of being able to do a deal with the Greens though?

MINISTER BOWEN: Well, I thank Larissa Walters for her engagement. This was a test for the Greens, the majority of the Greens passed that test. Three Greens decided to repeat the CPRS debacle of voting with the Liberals and the Nationals and One Nation.

This was a very sensible method which enables state governments to move away from native forest logging. If you believe in any native forest logging or moving away from it and reducing it, then you vote for this method. The hypocritical arguments I've heard from some Greens just don't stack up, do not stack up.

And it's deeply hypocritical to call for the end of native forest logging and then to vote against something like this. But I pay tribute to those Greens, the majority of the Greens, who were engaged in sensible conversations with me through Larissa Waters. It was a sensible conversation.

Some modest changes saw them support it. I pay tribute to Senator Andrew McLachlan, the Liberal who crossed the floor. He sees sensible policy.

I pay tribute to Senator Pocock who voted with the Government. So, a sensible majority voted with the Government to protect this method against the climate change denial of the Liberals and Nationals and One Nation and some of the grey – Greens. Well, yeah, I don't think the Greens are climate change denial.

They [indistinct]… MINISTER BOWEN: I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I said they voted with the climate change denial, yes.

They're arguing though that – Bob Brown and others were really concerned that this was the wrong approach. MINISTER BOWEN: Yeah well, I mean Bob Brown and Christine Milne also argue that we don't have enough renewable energy and they oppose the Marinus Link, which brings on renewable energy. I mean, they are the biggest hypocrites in politics, frankly.

I have to ask you about some just politics of the day outside of your portfolio. MINISTER BOWEN: Yeah. As best I can.

Andrew Hastie has really taken on One Nation for calling him a traitor in that online video – cartoon. MINISTER BOWEN: Cartoon video, yeah. Thank you.

They haven't apologised. It doesn't look like they're going to. They're not going to remove the video.

Does it matter? MINISTER BOWEN: Yes, it does. Look obviously, I have plenty of disagreements with Andrew Hastie.

I hope he has a long career in Opposition. I hope he's never in government. He's an Australian patriot though.

He put on the uniform. And he served his country in a warzone, in difficult circumstances. That should be honoured, not pilloried.

So I think Andrew Hastie has every right to respond as he has. It says a lot, frankly, about One Nation. They spent this week defending their leader in Victoria about drug charges and drink driving charges and attacking a former serviceman, a decorated serviceman.

I think it says more about Pauline Hanson and Barnaby Joyce than it does about Andrew Hastie. So, I think in this debate you can have – in this building, you can have civil debate. I'm happy to debate Andrew Hastie about a lot of things – we have a different view about many, many things.

I recognise and honour his service, and I think One Nation should too. Does that mean that you think it should be politically off the – no one is allowed to go after Andrew Hastie in service? MINISTER BOWEN: On that particular issue, over the testimony he gave in this Ben Roberts-Smith case, you think it shouldn't be – that should not be – MINISTER BOWEN: Well, a couple of issues there, Patricia.

Firstly, on the testimony, he was subpoenaed and he gave evidence to the best of his recollection and knowledge. What's One Nation arguing? That he should have ignored the subpoena or lied to the court?

I don't know. What are they arguing? That's what I don't understand there.

More broadly, about the debate, the word traitor is a very loaded term. It's a very loaded term. It's a legal term.

It has very severe consequences under law, treason. And Pauline Hanson's been out there taking offence because the Prime Minister said One Nation has dangerous policies. I mean, they can dish it out, but they can't take it.

Barnaby Joyce stood up at a rally in Wollongong and said, send your bullets to Anthony Albanese and Chris Bowen. They were nailing a coffin last week with the words net zero on it. I mean, they are the ones engaging in deeply inflammatory, inappropriate debate in this country, and then when they are subject to scrutiny themselves, they cry unfair treatment.

I mean, this is hypocritical too, frankly, on behalf of Barnaby Joyce and Pauline Hanson. I think the fundamental point is, you can have plenty of disagreements. Let's honour people who've done good things in their life.

I honour Andrew Hastie's service. He is not a traitor to his country, he's a patriot. Thank you for coming in.

MINISTER BOWEN: Good on you. We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture. We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.