Interview with Katie Woolf, Mix 104.9 Darwin

KATIE WOOLF, HOST: Now, the Federal Government has launched a national education campaign on the H5N1 bird flu to provide practical advice to Australians on what to do if they come across sick or dead birds. Now it comes as more than 650 bird flu events across the country, with none recorded yet here in the Northern Territory. But it is a matter of, well, ‘when’ rather than ‘not’.

And joining me is the Federal Environment Minister, the Senator Murray Watt. Good morning to you, Senator. MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER: G’day, Katie.

Good to talk to you again. KATIE WOOLF: Yeah, good to have you on the show. Now tell me, how concerning is this spread of the virus?

MURRAY WATT: Well, of course it’s great to see that the Northern Territory has not yet had any cases of this strain of bird flu, but we have seen them in every other state and territory in Australia. And of course, we’ve seen it in every other continent across the world. Australia was very fortunate to be the last continent in the world to have this strain of bird flu come to our shores.

It's a strain that is spread by migratory birds, so unfortunately there’s nothing we can do really to stop it coming into Australia or to be spread around the country by birds as they travel to different places. But what we can be doing is investing as well as possible with state and territory governments to build up the resilience of bird populations, mammals as well, because it can spread to mammals.

And we've seen some cases in South Australia impacting on sea lions and seals. But what this is really about is continuing the work we've done over the last couple years to prepare. Even some of the work that we've done in the Northern Territory around removing feral pigs, other feral animals helps, because they of course really damage those populations of birds and reduce their chances of surviving when we do see these kind of epidemics come to our shores.

KATIE WOOLF: And so what's the tact- you know, like, why are we going down the education campaign more so than, I suppose, a widespread sort of vaccine rollout? MURRAY WATT: Well, I guess we're doing both, Katie. What we are doing in a number of other states and territories that have already had this strain arrive is working with their state and territory governments to undertake vaccinations.

It's a little bit complicated to vaccinate these because the vaccine requires two doses, and of course it's hard enough to catch birds in the wild once let alone come back in a month and do it all over again. So the efforts in terms of vaccinations are particularly focusing on some of our most endangered species that are in captivity, so for example we’re working with zoos and other facilities that have these captive populations of birds to undertake those vaccinations.

But beyond that, we're expanding the lab facilities - we've done that in the Northern Territory as well as other places. And then in terms of the education campaign, what we've found is that the level of awareness of bird flu is still relatively low in Australia. And even just giving people basic information about not touching dead birds if they see them, recording what they see on their phone, sending it to our hotline and to our other information sources – it's that kind of practical information that we need to get out to people, and that's the purpose of that education campaign.

KATIE WOOLF: Now you did travel to the Northern Territory. I think you were here for a few days last week. You headed out bush as well.

I mean, was the H5N1 bird flu the main thing on the agenda, or what else were you up to while you were here? MURRAY WATT: Yeah, had a great time in the Northern Territory last week, three days in everywhere from Arnhem Land through to Kakadu, visiting some of the rangers that we fund around Maningrida and Ramingining as well. Basically the purpose of the trip was to get a sense of how the Northern Territory is preparing for this strain of bird flu, and certainly what I saw gave me confidence that the work that's needed is being done.

And then, of course, in Kakadu I wanted to inspect some of the facilities that we're upgrading. It was pleasing to see that the first of the road upgrades that we've funded in Kakadu is now complete – that's Kubara Road – and good progress is being made, for example, with the road to Jim Jim Falls. Obviously the really heavy wet weather that you had in the Northern Territory earlier this year has delayed some of that road work, but it's great to see that some of it's starting to be completed now as well.

KATIE WOOLF: Yeah, I mean, it is important to get that work done, so it's accessible, obviously, for locals, for tourists, for everybody. MURRAY WATT: Definitely, yeah. So we've invested about $70 million to do those upgrades, and that was even before that floodwater came through, and those works, as I say, are now well underway.

KATIE WOOLF: Murray, tell me, I know the protection of the environment's always a concern when the Northern Territory faces a new major development, and we've seen an onshore gas industry move into- well, we've seen it move into production a few weeks ago. We know that some Northern Territory Labor members are now flagging sort of personal opposition to it. As the minister, are you backing the industry?

MURRAY WATT: Well, my role as the environment minister is to assess the environmental impact of any development, whether it be the gas industry, mining, housing development, wind farms, all of those kind of things. So I don't come to the job with a sort of a perspective on individual projects. I do think, as a country, we are going to need more gas development going forward, if only to back up the renewable energy that we're now seeing develop right across the country as well.

But what I can assure your listeners is that we'll apply the highest possible and strongest possible test to the environmental impacts of any gas developments that happen in the Northern Territory, just as we do for any other kind of development as well. KATIE WOOLF: I mean, surely the moratorium, though, and the Pepper inquiry identified that all of those stringent- all of those things, those hoops that need to be jumped through, have been jumped through.

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, well, this is the thing, is that in terms of the work that's happened with those gas developments so far, the exploration activities that have been undertaken, you'd be aware both the Pepper inquiry and the Independent Expert Scientific Committee provided advice, that the impacts on the environment from exploration activity are unlikely to have significant environmental impacts.

But, of course, as we see some of those developments move to full scale production, I would expect that we will see referrals needing environmental approvals at the federal level for some of those projects. I know that there are discussions happening between the proponents of some of those projects and the new federal EPA. And we'll certainly make sure that if any project, gas or otherwise, is likely to have a significant impact on our environment, then that will have its proper assessment done.

KATIE WOOLF : Does that mean you'd stop it? Or does it just mean that you would make sure that they're doing the right thing? MURRAY WATT: What we generally do with any kind of project - and really federal governments only get involved in environmental assessments if a particular project is likely to have a significant impact on one of the things that we protect nationally.

We don't get involved in every single project across the country. But if it reaches that significant impact bar, then we do. What we do then is have a very good look at the project, look at the science behind it, determine what its environmental impacts are going to be.

If those impacts are going to be so severe that there'd be permanent and irreplaceable destruction of the environment, then they wouldn't go ahead. But what happens more often is that really strict conditions are applied to the approval of a project, requiring them, for example, to not damage the water table or to reduce the clearing that they undertake, which might impact on threatened species.

That's the way we tend to approach it. KATIE WOOLF: If you have just joined us, we are indeed speaking to Senator Murray Watt. He is the Minister for Environment and Water, the federal minister.

Murray, I want to ask you, there's been some question marks around the development of data centres in the Northern Territory. The CLP Government is keen to push that industry. What's your take on it?

MURRAY WATT: Yeah, as a government, we do encourage investment from data centres. We think that there's a lot of economic and national security benefits from data centres being built in Australia rather than overseas. But like any other project, they can't damage the environment.

And I know there's a lot of concern in the Northern Territory about potential impact on water. As the Water Minister, that's one of the things that I'm working with other ministers on is to put in place some really strong national standards that require new data centres to prioritise their water efficiency, where possible to use recycled water. You know, we don't want to see these new data centres damage water supply and drive up water prices, whether it be for farmers or households or other industries as well.

KATIE WOOLF: I know it had been pointed out to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure you've got more knowledge than I, but it had been pointed out to me that the way that the new data centres do work is just that, that they do recycle that water rather than, you know, drawing more water from a source, it is recycling it. So is that something that you're seeing from the data centres now as they progress?

MURRAY WATT: That's right, Katie. That is certainly the way the industry is going and that's a good thing to see. I think what you'd find is that some of the older data centres that have already been built in Australia have used older technology that isn't as water efficient.

But that's exactly what we want to do as a federal government is require the use of that kind of technology. We don’t want to see a race to the bottom across the different states and territories where one place allows massive water consumption and others don’t. We’re just trying to have those, sort of, uniform standards across the country so we can preserve the water supply that we need for other industries and for households as well.

KATIE WOOLF: Yep. Hey Minister, before I let you go, I do want to ask you quickly, the Commonwealth, are you guys considering a cut to the fuel excise given the fact that we're seeing those fuel prices edging higher and higher? MURRAY WATT: Look, I can see myself that fuel prices are going higher, and I saw that in the Northern Territory last week when I was there.

The short answer is that it's not on our agenda at this stage to cut the fuel excise again. We obviously did have that temporary cut in place a couple of months ago. And we always said that it was going to be temporary because it does have a pretty massive impact on the federal budget at a time when we need to watch our spending as well.

But what we are doing is really making sure that we continue to deliver some of that permanent cost of living relief that we've put in place, like the tax cuts, the cheaper childcare, the cheaper medicines, the more bulk billing. That's our focus, is that sort of permanent cost of living relief rather than sort of temporary moves like the fuel excise reduction.

KATIE WOOLF: Yeah, look, I know there'll be people screaming at the radio really wanting that fuel excise cut to, you know, to be back in place. But I am going to move along because I do want to ask you about these, you know, about these working holiday visas as well. I know the government changes to working holidaymaker visas, they are causing serious concerns for several industries in the Northern Territory around the workforce.

Is the Commonwealth going to consider an exemption for the Northern Territory? MURRAY WATT: Again, that's not on our agenda, Katie- KATIE WOOLF: -how though, Murray? We're going to be seriously hurting if this doesn't get sorted out for us- MURRAY WATT: I guess the challenge we've got as a country, whether it be in the Northern Territory or elsewhere, is trying to get a sustainable migration number in place without damaging the economy- KATIE WOOLF: -totally get that.

MURRAY WATT: -and what you would have seen, Katie, is that we have nearly halved net overseas migration since we came to office- KATIE WOOLF: -I totally get it right, like I totally get it and you guys- like, you are in a situation where you need to talk a bit tougher when it comes to migration. I know that there's concerns as well in some of those big capital cities, but surely you can see that this, for the likes of the Northern Territory, I was reading an article in the Cairns Post yesterday as well, for regional Australia, this is just going to be a massive kick in the guts.

MURRAY WATT: What we have done, particularly in response to the concerns of farmers, is come to an agreement with the National Farmers' Federation around the fast tracking of backpacker visas. Look, I've seen for myself in the Northern Territory, when I was the Agriculture Minister, I've been to mango farms, I've been to other farms in the Northern Territory and seen how much it relies- the industry relies on overseas labour.

We also do have that Pacific Labour Mobility scheme that we're encouraging people to use because there is still the ability to bring home the Pacific workers because they tend to stay for shorter amounts of time than backpackers. But, you know, you can see it's difficult to meet the Government's migration target- KATIE WOOLF: MURRAY WATT: -which is 245,000 a year.

Can you imagine the impact it would have on Northern Territory if we saw One Nation's policy of 130,000 a year? Or even the Coalition- KATIE WOOLF: -well, yeah, look, and I get that, I totally understand that, but I'm not interested in them at the moment because you guys are the Government. MURRAY WATT: KATIE WOOLF: What I want to ask, because it's not just, you know, when you look at the agriculture industry for us here in Northern Territory, we’re talking hospitality, we’re talking tourism.

Even Chansey Paech, one of the Labor Members yesterday, joined me on the show yesterday and said ‘Katie, you know, out in remote communities, on the councils in some of these areas, they've got these working holidaymakers out- or visa holders out there’. This is going to hurt us really, really badly. Is there any way that the Federal Government will reconsider this for the Northern Territory?

MURRAY WATT: Well, we'll certainly keep working with the Northern Territory Government around this and how it's rolling out. We've said that we'll monitor the impact of these policies. But the reality is, Katie, that if we are to reduce migration numbers across the country - and I think the Australian community is pretty clear that that's what they want to see happen - those cuts have got to come from somewhere and from some industries.

KATIE WOOLF: Are you worried about the impact that's going to have on places like the Northern Territory? MURRAY WATT: Well, this is exactly the balance we're trying to strike, is how we can bring down migration numbers in line with what the Australian community wants to see happen while not tanking the economy- KATIE WOOLF: -why not make them spend some time in regional Australia?

Why not say, right-o, you want to come to Australia, if you want to work, you've got to spend some time in regional Australia. MURRAY WATT: Well, that does already happen with a range of the migration programs that we have in place, whether it be about backpackers or even some of the doctors that we bring over to Australia have to spend time in regional areas.

You know, I accept that regional areas do have particular needs. You know, it's not as if backpackers are the only group that is being reduced. We're significantly reducing the number of international students coming to the country.

I think we just need to remember, Katie, when it comes to backpackers, and that’s where most of the concern is, we’ve got record numbers of backpackers in Australia at the moment. They've gone up, they've exploded since COVID. And, you know, I think it's the second highest group after international students in terms of the increase that we've seen since COVID.

So we can't turn a blind eye to any sector. It's why we are trying to reduce those numbers across the board. But I recognise these things have impacts.

And again, I just have to make the point that, you know, if One Nation wants to halve the numbers again, that would be even more serious still. KATIE WOOLF: Murray Watt, you and I have spoken on numerous occasions. I've always found you to be a good bloke.

Can I implore you to please, please, please have a look at this for the Northern Territory and the impact that it's going to have, and potentially reconsider? Because honestly, for those industries, like we've spoken to several of them in the last couple of weeks, and they are, like, they're begging for the Federal Government to help. MURRAY WATT: Yeah, as I say, Katie, we have undertaken to monitor the impacts of this, and I'll give you that undertaking as well.

You can rest assured that the Northern Territory MPs, Luke Gosling, Marion Scrymgour, Malarndirri McCarthy have been speaking up about the Northern Territory, and I know they'll continue to do that as well. But yeah, look, happy to give you that undertaking that we'll keep a close look on this as it rolls out. KATIE WOOLF: Senator Murray Watt, Minister for Environment and Water, always appreciate your time.

Thank you for joining me on the show. MURRAY WATT: You too, Katie. KATIE WOOLF: MURRAY WATT: Nice to talk again.

KATIE WOOLF: You too. Thank you. We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture.

We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.