Interview with Kieran Gilbert, News24

KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Let’s turn our attention to that High Court ruling that’s been handed down in relation to an expansion of a coal mine in the Hunter, the Mount Pleasant mine. And joining me live from Griffith in New South Wales is the Environment and Water Minister, Murray Watt. Thanks for your time.

I want to talk to you about this grant the Government’s delivering to SunRice as well, but first this big news out of the High Court. What is your advice as to what this means in relation to considering Scope 3 emissions when it comes to mine expansions? MURRAY WATT, MINISTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT AND WATER : Good to be with you, Kieran.

Obviously, this judgement has only just been handed down. We haven't had an opportunity yet to review it in full, we're doing that as we speak. I would make the point that the decision from the High Court is in relation to a New South Wales government decision, based on New South Wales legislation.

So it doesn't automatically transfer to Commonwealth decisions or Commonwealth legislation. From what I've seen of the decisions so far, Kieran, essentially what the High Court majority found was that there was a requirement under New South Wales government law for the planning commission there to attach conditions to a project approval that would minimise greenhouse gas emissions as much as possible, and what the court has found is that that included the need to attach conditions around what are known as scope 3 emissions - so the emissions that are caused when coal is burnt overseas when it's exported.

To my knowledge, that's the first time the High Court has made that kind of a finding. But I guess the point I'm making is that was a very specific requirement under New South Wales law that doesn't exist in Commonwealth law. So, at this early stage, I wouldn't necessarily say that it will flow under Commonwealth decisions as well.

KIERAN GILBERT: So it wouldn't set a precedent for other states and federal law? MURRAY WATT : As I say, Kieran, we've only just received the decision, so we're reviewing that now. But obviously, when it comes to Commonwealth's environmental approvals, what we have to take into account is the requirements under federal environmental law.

There is no requirement like this in federal environment law. So, at this point, it doesn't seem that that would necessarily impact on Commonwealth decisions. And as to whether it affects other states, it will depend on what their laws require.

KIERAN GILBERT: Could you deliver a set of guidelines, federally, that would govern the way that Scope 3 emissions are dealt with? For viewers who are wondering, what are they - essentially, Scope 3 emissions are those – say if we export coal - the emissions of that coal when used by another nation. So not in Australia.

MURRAY WATT: That's exactly right, Kieran, and the way the Australian law has typically worked in the past is that Australian governments, Australian companies, are responsible for the emissions they generate in Australia. So, for example, if a coal mine was using electricity to power its operations and that electricity caused emissions on site, then that would need to be managed under Australian law.

But traditionally, the emissions that are generated when that product is sent overseas, they count towards that country's emissions rather than Australia's emissions. That's how the whole Paris Agreement works, is that every country is responsible for their own emissions. Now, this seems to be a novel decision from the High Court, and it will take a little bit of time to understand its implications.

But what we intend to do is to keep managing environmental approvals in line with the federal law. Obviously, states have different matters that they need to assess under their laws, and each state will now need to take into account what this decision means for them as well. KIERAN GILBERT : I've just received a statement from Angus Taylor and Matt Canavan.

I’ll read it to you, because I need to get your reaction to it. It says, ‘today's High Court decision on the Mount Pleasant coal mine is a direct threat to the Hunter, to thousands of future mining jobs, and to Australia's standing as a reliable energy exporter. The Albanese and Minns Labor Governments must act immediately to fix the law.

The ruling means local planning authorities must now consider the climate impacts of coal used in other countries before approving a mine in New South Wales'. Will you seek to legislate and shore up expansions of some of these facilities? MURRAY WATT: Well again, Kieran, we've only just received this decision, and we are reviewing that decision now.

But I make the point that this is not a decision that's been made in terms of a Commonwealth environmental law. You know, I understand why Angus Taylor and Matt Canavan would want to try and make a federal political issue out of this, but it's all to do with New South Wales government law. Obviously the New South Wales Government will consider how they respond to this.

But there's no change that's required to the federal environmental law, because our laws don't require these kind of considerations at the moment anyway. KIERAN GILBERT: But if you need to legislate, will you, to provide clarity? MURRAY WATT: Well, what we do as a federal government - and it would be the same if Angus Taylor or Matt Canavan were in government themselves - is they set the rules that apply to federal government decisions.

And federal government decisions, under the federal law, don't require a consideration of greenhouse gas emissions. So there's no change to be made at the federal level. It's obviously, you know, the court has found to be a different situation in New South Wales, and it'll now be for the New South Wales Government to determine how they respond to that.

KIERAN GILBERT: It does seem odd, and in fact, in this statement, Taylor and Canavan say, ‘this is absurd, under the international rules that Labor champions, emissions are counted where coal is used, not where it is mined’. So they've come out and condemned this decision. Do you understand why they're so angry about it?

MURRAY WATT : Well, for starters, what I'd say is that if Angus Taylor and Matt Canavan are suggesting that Australia should withdraw from the Paris Agreement around climate change, then that is a massive change of policy from the Federal Opposition to what they've said before. But certainly from Australia's position and the Albanese Government's position, that we all know that climate change is a global challenge, and the only way to solve it is by countries working together under an agreement to reduce their own emissions.

And that's why in Australia, we are building new renewable energy, bringing in new vehicle emissions standards to reduce the emissions we create here, and we expect other countries to bring down their emissions overseas. We think that that is the way the system should operate. The example I often give Kieran is that, you know, we buy a lot of Japanese and Korean cars here in Australia.

The emissions that are generated by those cars when they're driven in Australia, count towards Australia's emissions. They don't count towards Japan, Korea's emissions, and similarly, coal or gas produced in Australia that is burnt and used overseas, counts towards their emissions rather than Australia's. KIERAN GILBERT: Well, given it's not- you're saying it's not federal law and federal Parliament that needs to intervene, would you like the New South Wales Parliament to provide some clarity here?

MURRAY WATT: I'm not going to tell the New South Wales government or parliament what to do here, and especially when they have only just received this decision as well. I'm sure that they will be giving it a lot of thought themselves, and I'll leave their response to them. KIERAN GILBERT: I've got to ask you about this payment grant to SunRice.

They announced just a few months ago 80-odd jobs were going in Deniliquin and Leeton. Will this money save those jobs? MURRAY WATT: Yeah that's the reason I'm in the Riverina today, Kieran, is that we have announced a commitment from the Federal Government of $14.5 million, which is a 50 percent share of the cost of a new rice cake processing plant in Leeton.

That's a good story because it's about actually supporting the 200 direct and indirect jobs that that facility relies on going forward. In terms of the jobs that were laid off at Deniliquin recently, it’s my understanding that SunRice are looking to pick up some of those staff as part of this new operation. It's obviously a business decision for them, who they can take on and who they can't.

But also, what I'd say is that we have funded, as a federal government, $300 million being provided to state governments to support job-creating projects in those states, in those areas that are affected by water buybacks. As I said to you recently in a different interview, Kieran, we can't ignore the fact that over the decades, too much water has been extracted from the Murray–Darling Basin system.

And if we keep doing that, if we keep doing that, we're going to see towns and industries across the Basin collapse because there will be no water. So that's why we've got to have that Plan; to build more water infrastructure like we're doing, to recover more water through voluntary buybacks, but also to provide funding to support those communities that are impacted, and that's what we've done today.

KIERAN GILBERT: Some of the advocates for the irrigators, including David Farley, the One Nation Member for Farrer, he says that it's fraudulent data that you're using, that the environmental data is not accurate. And for example, Mother Nature providing over winter with more rain than normal. Do you factor that in when you look at the buybacks?

MURRAY WATT : It's really pleasing to see - I drove up here from Canberra yesterday, Kieran - and there has been good recent rain across this region. All the fields are looking very lush. But the reality is it's not like that forever.

And this area has been hit by droughts in recent years. We know from the scientific evidence that climate change means this area is going to have a hotter, drier climate moving forward, and we've got to get ready for that. We don't get ready for that if we continue to pretend that we can go on like we have forever.

But importantly, we've got to support those communities as they adjust, and that's what that $300 million is doing and that's what today's investment in the SunRice facility is doing as well. KIERAN GILBERT : So just to- I'll let you go, but to clarify, it should save a portion of the jobs. You don't know exactly how much.

And will it put it that business on a sustainable footing going forward, that grant you've made today? MURRAY WATT : Certainly what this means is that SunRice can now confidently invest in a new production plant for rice cake, the kind of rice cakes you might buy at the supermarket, I certainly do for my family as well. And apart from feeding people, that's going to be great news for dozens of jobs here in communities like Leeton.

There was some uncertainty around whether those jobs would be around in the long term. Now there is certainty, and we're really proud to have worked with the company, the union, and other local representatives to deliver that. KIERAN GILBERT : And of the 80 jobs or thereabouts, do you know how many?

Will it be 50 percent? Majority? So what are we talking about?

MURRAY WATT: You're talking about the jobs from Deniliquin? KIERAN GILBERT: The Deniliquin jobs, yeah. Well, there were both, weren't there?

There were Deniliquin and Leeton jobs lost. MURRAY WATT: Yeah. So there's a smaller number of jobs that were lost in Leeton.

Most of the jobs were lost in Deniliquin. I don't have an exact number on me, but we- the figures that I've been given is that this investment will support around 200 existing direct and indirect jobs in these communities. And if we didn't do that investment, then that would mean 200 jobs would go.

Because it obviously isn't just SunRice, it's all the suppliers. it's the supply chain. So this is really good for the community, and the mayor will really welcome that investment today. KIERAN GILBERT : Environment and Water Minister Murray Watt, thanks.

Appreciate it. MURRAY WATT: Thanks, Kieran. We acknowledge the Traditional Owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to land, waters and culture.

We pay our respects to their Elders past, present and emerging.