Interview with Sarah Ferguson, ABC 7.30

SARAH FERGUSON: Yesterday's high court decision about emissions from burning Australian coal overseas has set off a flurry of speculation about the potential impacts on mine development in Australia. The decision arrived as Chris Bowen was in the Pacific hosting a climate change event and trying to draw the world's attention to the vulnerability of low-lying islands ahead of next month's COP in Turkiye.

The Climate Change Minister joins me from Suva. Chris Bowen, welcome to MINISTER FOR CLIMATE CHANGE AND ENERGY, CHRIS BOWEN: Thanks for having me on, Sarah. Good evening.

SARAH FERGUSON: wanted world leaders to attend this pre-COP event in the Pacific to highlight, as I just said, the vulnerabilities of those countries and communities to climate change. Was it an unrealistic ambition to get those leaders to the Pacific? MINISTER BOWEN: Well we had 53 ministers or prime ministers or presidents at pre-COP.

And we took a delegation of leaders and senior ministers like the Climate Change Minister of India and the United Arab Emirates - big emitters, important countries - to Tuvalu two days ago. Tuvalu is the least visited country in the world, and there's a lot to see when it comes to the impacts of climate and a lot to hear from people. So we wanted to really make sure that the Pacific, who's been trying to get issues like access to finance and the importance of oceans on the COP agenda for years, has a better chance.

And I think that objective was met. So many ministers and prime ministers and presidents said at the pre-COP that the visit to Tuvalu was so informative of the why we're doing what we're doing and the need to do more and do faster. So in terms of Australia's role in the Pacific, we have really shown the Pacific Islands that their number one, two and three issue, which is climate change, is also one that we are working with them to elevate on the world stage.

That's important for moral reasons from my point of view, but it's also vital for Australia's geopolitical best interests in the region. SARAH FERGUSON: Now, in your position at COP next month you’re pushing for a global agreement on 35 per cent electrification by 2035. You've got the Turkish President on side, who are obviously hosting COP.

What about at the US, the EU, and China? MINISTER BOWEN: Well, the US aren't parties to the COP, Sarah, so that's not something that we're pursuing with them. Just to be clear, the electrification agenda is an important one, the world's already promised at Dubai, at the Dubai COP, to double energy efficiency and triple renewable energy, but we also need to electrify those things that can be electrified.

And so we've been working with the Turkish Government, with the International Energy Agency and others, to assess what needs to be done to move things that are fossil fuel use straight to electricity. And yes, if we are to have any chance of holding the world to 1.5 degrees of warming we need to get to that 35 per cent by 2035 level. Now, there’s two separate things going on.

There’s a pledge which countries are signing up to, which Australia is signing up to and other countries that have agreed, and then there's negotiations. And yes, I've been talking to China and India and Saudi Arabia and the UAE about the electrification agenda. The negotiations are done by consensus - we've got to get 190 countries to agree.

Ultimately, that's the challenge for the negotiations, and Australia is Chair of the negotiations. But that's an important part of the agenda, it's an important part of the COP, and it's an important part of Australia stepping up as a middle power, working with Turkiye in a very contested geopolitical environment - stepping up with the Pacific family and with Turkiye as a middle power to try and influence the world's climate agenda a little more.

SARAH FERGUSON: If I can just focus on China. They must be getting to that target of electrification, if not already exceeding it. Do you think you will get their support for a global agreement on electrification?

MINISTER BOWEN: Well, I'm not going to pre-empt what's going to happen at COP. Obviously, a big part of my job is talking to countries like China, which I've been doing. I had conversations with the Chinese representatives today.

I hosted the Chinese Minister for Climate Change in Australia a few weeks ago. On India, India’s doing a great job on electrification and they've brought electricity to hundreds of millions of homes for the time in recent years, but they're also moving fast to renewable energy. But we're talking to them about their role in electrification and their support for the electrification agenda generally.

Again, I'm not going to pre-empt what I've been talking to them about or what the results from COP will be. That's my job to- as part of that COP process, to steer that negotiation, and we'll continue to do that work in the lead up to the COP31 actual process. SARAH FERGUSON: I want to move on to talk about coal.

As I mentioned in the introduction, the high court yesterday ruled that an approval for an extended coal mine in New South Wales was invalid because planning authority should have considered the climate change impacts of coal burned after export. Have you spoken to your Pacific Island colleagues about that decision from the Australian High Court? MINISTER BOWEN: I've been speaking to Pacific Island ministers all week about a whole range of issues.

The high court decision only just came down, obviously. My understanding of it is that it's an interpretation of the existing New South Wales planning law. So it's really looked at the New South Wales planning laws and interpreted how they should be implemented in a specific way at a specific time.

Obviously, the Pacific ministers, like many issues, are talking to me about all sorts of things, but this is quite a specific court case on the interpretation of an existing state law. SARAH FERGUSON: Notwithstanding, we know that leaders have frequently and forcefully called on Australia to stop exporting coal and gas - fossil fuels. So it would be of, I would think, enormous interest to them for a decision from the high court – albeit, as you say, about a New South Wales decision - I would expect it to be of enormous interest to them.

MINISTER BOWEN: SARAH FERGUSON: I just ask, has anybody raised it with you? MINISTER BOWEN: Yeah. Not specifically.

But I've been talking to the Pacific climate ministers about lifting their agenda all week. And again, if you believe in Australia's place in the world, you believe in us being influential in our region, then you believe in acting on climate change, you believe in working with the Pacific on climate change. I've been working with the Pacific ministers for example, Sarah, to lift their access to the existing global climate finance.

Do you know that 0.2 per cent of the existing global climate finance goes to adaptation in small island developing states? Those countries like Tuvalu, which need it the most, struggled to get it - they get it the least, and that's got to change. And that's part of the role that Australia's bringing, it’s part of our geopolitical best interests to pursue that.

You know, wasn't that long ago that the Prime Minister of Fiji said Australia should be expelled from the Pacific Islands Forum under Scott Morrison because we weren't doing enough. Now you've got the Prime Minister here with me in Fiji interacting so closely with the Pacific leaders, lifting our international engagement around the world, but with a particular focus on the Pacific.

That's led, for example, in no small way to Australia entering into new treaties and partnerships and alliances with PNG, Vanuatu, Tuvalu, and Nauru which is unthinkable under the previous government - unthinkable under the previous government. Here, you’ve got Australia lifting our influence partly because, in no small measure, domestically we've changed our stance on climate change, and internationally we're working with them to lift their agenda.

Now on fossil fuels, I'll say the same to you, Sarah, as I say to the ministers and we discuss and they understand, the way to transition away from fossil fuels is to build more renewables. You can't transition away from fossil fuels unless and until domestically you're building new renewables. We're doing that – 50 per cent now renewables in our grid.

As the PM said at his first COP, Australia's target was two per cent, now we're at 50. So, we've made important strides. But also working with the 99 per cent of emissions that aren’t in Australia, exactly the sort of work we're doing here in the pre-COP and we will be doing in a few weeks time in Turkiye, to try and influence that discussion as a middle power and to play that role.

Which is just unthinkable under an Opposition which is, effectively, a climate denial operation and has been insulting the Pacific all week. SARAH FERGUSON: Right. If I may just come back to the decision.

Is the government planning to embrace this decision by the High Court of Australia, or planning to fight it? MINISTER BOWEN: Well with respect Sarah, we weren't a party to the case, and you don't accept or reject high court decisions. They're high court decisions.

They're the law of the land. But it was an interpretation of a state law. We were not a party to the case - it had no consideration of Commonwealth law is my understanding.

So with respect, I'm not sure that you can accept or embrace or, your words, a decision as a government. There's a separation of powers in Australia. Governments make laws, high courts and other courts interpret laws.

SARAH FERGUSON: But at the same time, do you accept the principle of the decision that Australia does have a responsibility to consider the climate change damage of the fossil fuel that it exports? That's what underlines the decision made by the high court. MINISTER BOWEN: Well with respect, Sarah, I think the principle of the decision was an interpretation of a particular New South Wales Government Act of Parliament, the Planning Laws of New South Wales And I think it should be- SARAH FERGUSON: It was, but if I may...

MINISTER BOWEN: You know, that's just a statement of fact. SARAH FERGUSON: Yes, I beg your pardon. There's a bit of a delay so I’m reluctant to- MINISTER BOWEN: But it's important we're factual.

SARAH FERGUSON: Yes. But nonetheless, the high court was clear... MINISTER BOWEN: No, no.

I appreciate that. I appreciate that. But it's important to be factual.

It wasn't- it was not a reading, in my understanding, of a broader change in Australia's legal framework. It was an interpretation of one particular act of parliament in one particular state. SARAH FERGUSON: Nonetheless, there is- there's clearly been a strong reaction from Western Australia - your own Cabinet colleague, Madeleine King, said the decision is not helpful.

Do you think that this decision could have an impact nationally on further coal or gas developments in the country? MINISTER BOWEN: Well as I said, Sarah, my understanding is it was a court case brought by a community group, entirely within their rights under our legal system, heard by the highest court in the land. And if you believe, obviously, in the separation of powers - again, to your question - do you embrace a high court decision or not.

Well with respect, I'm not a high court judge, I'm not even a lawyer, but I accept and understand the separation of powers. SARAH FERGUSON: Chris Bowen, thank you very much indeed for joining us. MINISTER BOWEN: Great pleasure, Sarah.

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